[APP] - version 3.25.+ ( 9. 8. 2017 )

[Andrew Heard]

The current system uses three kinds of points to define a "Route"

1) Shaping/Destination Points
2) Via Points
3) Navigation Points

Why isn't the most basic of these three points simply called a "Route Point"? Or "Routing Point"?

Would it not be clear that you define a Route using Route/Routing Points? (Instead of Shaping or Destination.)

@Taras - that's the discussion we are now having. Destination Points are a beta-only feature. No documentation/ manual yet so perfect time to get best outcome. For me, all 3 types of points are routing points - they are all used to influence the path of the route. If I do a search for "garmin Shaping Point definition" I find there is already widely recognized terminology so why invent yet another term. It appears this Garmin topic is quite relevant to the Locus situation.

[Menion]

Hmm, isn't what I wrote to matmas here http://forum.locusmap.eu/index.php?topic=5827.msg48985#msg48985 good enough reason? Maybe I'm only one who find this concept useful? And if so, you expect to all points behave like "via points" or like "shaping points"?

@Andrew Heard: I also do not know better method how to answer with quote, that's why I complain on this system little bit .

[Andrew Heard]

Hmm, isn't what I wrote to matmas here http://forum.locusmap.eu/index.php?topic=5827.msg48985#msg48985 good enough reason? Maybe I'm only one who find this concept useful?

A useful concept for me too.

It seems that Shaping points behave like unnamed Via points? Although Via points inside a track can be exported & correctly restored on import. Could a Shaping point be treated like an unnamed Via point for export/ import?

[Menion]

Is it really necessary? I always considered these green shaping/definition/whatever points to be only a helpers when creating routes, nothing more. They just say "hey, I wants to ride here and here, but I definitely do not want to be notified about these places". So they are "lost" once track is created and saved ( in latest versions they are stored internally and restored in route planner, but again just for use-case of route planning ).

[matmas]

@menion Now I understand what's the difference between the two.

If you need two of them or not, if you need to export as gpx as @Andrew suggested or  not, I don't know. We will probably discuss for months and therefore it's a choice you should made. IMO if you have two different object is better to have them really different (as it is) then more or less same (as unnamed via points).

I did a test with the available beta and a fresh track and seems the shaping points are not recovered in the track when you edit with route planner.


New track. on the right you see a via point in blue e several shaping points here and there.



If you save and edit the route has been recomputed and  only the via point has been used.

If you transform the via point in shaping point you have this after editing again:



From you words I understand this is not the intended behaviour.

If I have two put my two cents is that the track is not recomputed when you edit it with route planner

It should behave as it does the moment before saving, I think is the more natural behaviour.

If you want a recalculation, make a fake move on a shaping point or ask to compute it all with a proper menu entry.

(BTW great thing that if you exit without saving you can restart where you left )

As always thousands thumbs up   for your work!

Inviato dal mio SM-G930F utilizzando Tapatalk

[zossebart]

@Menion:

Thanks for adding nogo button in navigation menu, tested it at the weekend, works as expected! (despite the fact that I first forgot to move the cursor to another position than my current location before adding the nogo  ).

Hm, the more I think of it, the more I want to say: please also save shaping/definition points into exported gpx. Because for me, they belong to the track the same way via-points do, they are essential for the shape of the track (and the user normally sets them intentionally).
This way, editing the (re-imported) track later is easier and you immediately see the intention of the creator of the track.
In the resulting track (when not in routeplanner mode) they should stay invisible and of course they should be ignored when recalculating in navigation mode (as it is now).

Any progress about nogo radius user interface?
Did you come to a conclusion about export of full via point data by now?

[Taras D]

@Andrew

Thanks for the link! The 77th post in that thread (whew!) sums up my own experience with using Basecamp (i.e. its use of undocumented terminology).

To put it politely, the term "Shaping point" is used very sparingly in Basecamp. Searching for "shaping points" in Garmin's online Basecamp documentation produces no results (it finds many matches for "points"). The documentation uses the generic term "Route Points". HOWEVER, if you right-click a "route point", ta-dah!, there in the pop-up menu you see "Remove shaping points"! It also appears in (some) Nuvi documentation.

I defer to my wiser colleagues, who are clearly better versed in Basecamp's "secret language" than I, and accept the term "shaping point".

The 77th post also provides an explanation for the difference between "Shaping Points" and "Via Points".

Via points vs shaping points

• Via points are announced as you navigate, can have scheduling data, and you cannot skip them (unless you tell your device to do so).
  
• Shaping points are not announced, do not have scheduling data, and you can skip them as you navigate.

Is this how the Route Planner is handling Vias and Shaping Points?

[Žajdlík Josef]

Views with a new beta version.
1) Keyboard export panel is great, good work. Little, but pleased.
2) The NOGO points work great, but for the practical use they are too big - picture. If I want to block only one street because it is inconvenient, the range of the NOGO point closes the surrounding streets. I recommend adding a size slider when creating a new NOGO point - picture.

CZ:
Postřehy s novou beta verzí.
1) panel pro export bez klávesnice je skvělý, dobrá práce. Drobnost, ale potěší.
2) NOGO body fungují skvěle, ale pro praktické použití jsou moc velké - viz. obrázek. Pokud chci zablokovat jen jednu ulici protože je neprůjezdná, rozsah NOGO bodu mi uzavře i ulice okolní. Doporučuji při vytváření nového NOGO bodu přidat posuvník nastavující velikost - viz. obrázek.

[balloni55]

I recommend adding a size slider when creating a new NOGO point - picture.

+ 1

[Andrew Heard]

@Taras - I'm certainly not fixed on the term "Shaping" point. It is more meaningful & appeared on the face of it to be a more widely used term than "Definition" point. You & @0709 (& like the idea) observe a Shaping point is simply a silent, unnamed, unannounced Via point. So maybe this 3rd type of point doesn't even need a separate name? It's just an unnamed Via point? That could solve the next point...

@Menion - I'm strongly in support of @zossebart (also @matmas I think) that unnamed Via/ Shaping points are preserved in the metadata when the route plan is saved to a track. @0709 has indicated these silent Via points are then preserved on an export/ import GPX round-trip.

[poutnikl]

@Taras - I'm certainly not fixed on the term "Shaping" point. It is more meaningful & appeared on the face of it to be a more widely used term than "Definition" point. You & @0709 (& like the idea) observe a Shaping point is simply a silent, unnamed, unannounced Via point. So maybe this 3rd type of point doesn't even need a separate name? It's just an unnamed Via point? That could solve the next point...

In some sense, shaping points aka unnamed viapoints are just viapoints, to just go through.
In some sense, viapoints aka named viapoints are not really viapoints, but route POIs to visit..
Both are worthy to be kept when route is saved or exported.

[Menion]

Thank you guys for useful discussion. Seems that description on Garmin web page ( mentioned by Taras ) exactly describe system I have in mind here. So for now final decision is "Shaping points", is it's best describe reason of these points and also match "existing" used terminology.

Shaping points are not stored in metadata of saved track as I mentioned earlier. In latest Beta is remaining problem that when you start Route planner from submenu of any track, and any routing option ( other then "manual draw" ) is selected, autorecalculation starts automatically which cause lost of these shaping points. Will be fixed in next version.

Export of shaping points into GPX is currently not implemented. Still not sure, if this is needed at all ... we will see

[Taras D]

I found useful information about routing with Garmin devices here: http://www.poi-factory.com/node/6656

Garmin has a broad range of devices and they don't all behave the same way. According to someone on poi-factory, devices made before 2013 (like the Nuvi series) don't support shaping points correctly (they treat them exactly like via points ... and announce them).

This post includes a summary of the characteristics of shaping points:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shaping Points Advantages:
1- You will not be alerted as you're navigating and arriving at a shaping point as you are when using waypoints/vias.
2- If you deviate purposely off your route, the unit will skip the upcoming shaping point and navigate you to your next shaping or waypoint.
The disadvantage of using only waypoints is when you deviate purposely off your route the unit will try to route you back to the waypoint that you didn't go through.
3- When using shaping points with certain units you're able to manually skip an upcoming shaping point.

Note: Shaping points do not contain arrival time or distance between points information.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't find the post now but I recall reading Shaping Points are exported as <rtept>. I guess this is easy to confirm by exporting a route (containing shaping points) from Basecamp and examining the output.

This is fascinating stuff and I look forward to using Route Planner when it arrives in the next (full) release.


PS
I like Josef's "floating slider" suggestion for adjusting the size of NoGo points.

Should the floating slider prove to be difficult to implement (avoid overlapping other onscreen controls) or to use (it's a narrow target and a finger tap might be misinterpreted as touching the map), then an alternate is to use FABs (Floating Action Buttons).

When a NoGo point has focus, two NoGo-sizing buttons could appear above the existing two zoom buttons ("+" and "-") on the right. The icon on the upper button can be a large circle (to indicate increasing the size of the NoGO) and a smaller circle on the lower button (to indicate reduction of the NoGo's size).

[Andrew Heard]

Shaping points are not stored in metadata of saved track as I mentioned earlier.<snip> Will be fixed in next version.

@menion - can you clarify your quote - Shaping points are not saved in Locus internal database track metadata or external GPX file metadata? In my testing 3.25.5.2 Shaping points are saved to the internal database track metadata.

<snip> Will be fixed in next version.

What will be fixed?  My interpretation is most users in this forum topic would like Shaping points preserved.

Export of shaping points into GPX is currently not implemented. Still not sure, if this is needed at all ... we will see

Export of shaping points into GPX (Locus V1.1) would allow full round-tripping of saved Locus-created route.

With the Route Planner it is faster to add a Shaping point than a Via point (naturally). Most times I don't need any Via points. BRouter automatically creates all Navigation points. If I find I want to steer the route along some different road then I would simply add Shaping points as necessary. But I do want to be able to edit that track later (not just restoring the route plan) and have any existing Shaping points restored for further editing.

[zhaelon]

Hey everyone,

Please excuse me if I did miss already discussed points. I tried to read the threads but may have skipped over some parts.

I would like to comment on the new route planner, as I make heavy use on the old one (about 30k miles planned with it) and just tested it during the last 2 days for our motorcycle vacation (still almost 1 week left).

First off, I really like the new design and it adds a lot of flexibility.

Please add me to those hoping that the meta data about the current routing profile is stored on a per point basis and that a recompute function is added using this information. I also have to switch profiles a lot and just by dragging a point (for example on a small byroad) the current profile is applied, which is usually the wrong one messing up a previously good route ;-)

What I am currently unable to do (maybe I missed it, as I only tried it a few times):

• Search for Google Places from within the planner (I can search for addresses, though this seems not intuitive) - I use this a lot to search for Hotels / Restaurants / etc while planning
• Add a search result (address /Google Places)  to the database
• Show currently hidden points from the database (access track/POI menu)
• Switch maps from within the planner (access map menu)
• Switch vector map theme from within the planner
• Display the direct line between the points in addition to the routed path (was removed in some version between 2015 and now) - which was really useful as an overview for long distance planning
• Read out the distance from route begin to a definition/whatever point (tool tip shows distance from GPS, which is meaningless for my plans)

That said, the route planner makes planning our motorcycle trips easier (allowing to better insert points in between) but makes it a lot more difficult by preventing access to several (for us) critical options (poi/track, map, themes). Also I do hope that the distance value will be changed / enhanced to display the distance from start and distance to end instead of distance to GPS.

Another thing which I would love to see (though I could not say if it is included or not): I know that the Locus Maps have a POI database. As I never downloaded anything from the Locus Store, I do not have them and use the free vector maps without them.
Nevertheless, it would be great for motorcycle trip planning if there was an option to show POI of a certain group (for example gas stations) *along the route* (say +- n km/mi, optional value). That should not be a dynamic option but a 'display GROUP (select) along the current route' button, which helps identify a POI (or multiple) to add as via point (or mark as 'visible') and then hide everything else again.

Currently I use Navigon Cruiser or Here we go (both work on Here maps and its POI database) to find the nearest gas station offline and add them manually to the route :-)

Best wishes,
zhaelon