Author Topic: Navigation Generator  (Read 21966 times)

Offline menion

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Re: Navigation Generator
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2015, 08:39:35 »
Fine, if Joachim will also agree that we may stay for now with Guidance system, let's focus on a next issue.

Currently, instructions are used, screen is correctly turned on/off based on settings. In latest test version is also possible to delete existing instructions and even add a new (little bit slow method for now, but it works)

So next problem - too long instructions or anything from my above list is not yet perfect and needs improvements before we move to another step?
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Offline menion

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Re: Navigation Generator
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2015, 09:03:52 »
No problem. Yes, names should be used from TTS files, so it is possible to modify this TTS file exactly for this purpose - short tts messages as instructions. Discuss, use, test and let me know - please, observations for me as a short step by step information :), thanks
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Offline Joachim Buhl

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Re: Navigation Generator
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2015, 11:22:53 »
Hello You

Thanks for all your effort and the open minded discussion.
@Menion: I agree, that making the difference between navigation and guidance bigger, makes sense.
I think the length of the instuctions is cosmetic improvement. From beginning of display activation before a turn, to display off, there will be around a minute and minimum 2 spoken instructions. It does not really matter how long they are.
@Willy: The instructions of my track were generated by the internal generator and than I deleted around 80% because they were not needed.

@All: I tried to summarize the differences between navigation and guidance.
See this sheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15oIChfLHuqS09iFm7ngi2A_7eaCWajKKe1RPXluAGc8/edit?usp=sharing
Please do not hesitate to add/change/mark important things to discuss. Its just written in 10min and should be a start.
Where are the instructions coming from for guidance along a track at the moment?

I think the difference between navigation and guidance is another option set and the big difference in selecting the next waypoint.
I personally would like to have the arrows also in guidance mode.

Thanks Menion for implementing manuall addition of turn instructions. When will we get the Beta?

Thanks

PS.: Maybe we have to think about optimizing the display on feature. I recognized with turns being right after another in short distance, that locus switches off the screen because the timeout is over for the first instruction despite a next instruction is following. This leads to a black screen despite a turn. I think its a overlapping problem of following turn.
Maybe another concept would be up for consideration. Switching on display X seconds before turn and switching it off X seconds after the turn unless you are within the X seconds of the next turn. With guidance behavior of following each point by point it should be possible. So display on is not time dependent but track position depending.


« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 11:31:02 by Joachim Buhl »
 

Offline gynta

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Re: Navigation Generator
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2015, 12:56:00 »
So next problem - too long instructions or anything from my above list is not yet perfect and needs improvements before we move to another step?
names should be used from TTS files
means
expand *.tts file (new entries for guidance)?
or
split/separately *.tts files (navigation, guidance, training,..)?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 13:10:47 by gynta »
 

Offline Joachim Buhl

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Re: Navigation Generator
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2015, 13:22:48 »
Hello

Don't spend time on shorter instructions right now. Everybody who wants shorter instructions can edit the tts file right now.
Priority should be:
1. Deleting and adding instructions manually -> Done in next beta
2. Point to point guidance in right order
3. Sharpening option set for guidance and navigation -> Discussion about my sheet.
4. Optimization of display behavior (later)

Thanks

PS.: I really would like to help in programming or something like that, but I'm not able to do so. So I can just test and give feedback, sorry.
 

Offline gynta

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Re: Navigation Generator
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2015, 13:41:18 »
Everybody who wants shorter instructions can edit the tts file right now.
Most users want to use(!) Locus and they don't want to play with Locus!

Offline gynta

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Re: Navigation Generator
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2015, 13:58:02 »
@ Gynta pse wait please !

It wasn't my idea to talk about tts strings

Menion wrote:
So next problem - too long instructions or anything from my above list is not yet perfect and needs improvements
before we move to another step?
names should be used from TTS files
so...

Offline Joachim Buhl

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Re: Navigation Generator
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2015, 14:15:33 »
Hello

@gynta:
You are right and I totally agree. I do not want to discuss about two words more or less. Not now ;-).

@0709:
I'm talking about navigation mode with my small eight shaped course I posted before.
And yes, it could be a problem of changing of speed together with the distance to the next turn like in your example.
I have to ask precisely now:
"Majority of users did prefer the guiding module and screen...", what does that mean?
What is the difference between the display on algorithm between navigation and guidance mode?
Screen difference?
Navigation screen: no arrowed line to next waypoint/turn instruction point, turn instruction arrow, different track color.
Guidance screen: arrowed line, no arrow, different track color.
"did not choose for already more intelligent autoadapting Navigation". ????? What is different in navigation mode?
I saw the problem even in navigation mode.

"So my idea, start count down for screen off if wpt is reached, so screen is allways on in area of wpt "

Yes, That would make sense.

Thanks
 

Offline gynta

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Re: Navigation Generator
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2015, 14:27:42 »
Quote
I do not want to discuss about two words more or less. Not now.
good point :)

but only some users know... that there is a possibility to edit a personal en.tts or de.tts OK ?
right, some users. very few users. maybe later (manual) but not yet...

I only want to go step by step - as Menion wrote...

Offline Joachim Buhl

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Re: Navigation Generator
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2015, 15:10:26 »
Hello

I have to admit that I maybe do not know enough about the guidance mode because I didn't use it for "years".
I did a testdrive on my eight shaped route.

1. I understand the difference in display on behavior between navigation and guidance.
Navigation: algorithm that takes speed into account and generates variable distances for the turn instructions.
Guidance:  Fixed value for "Set next trackpoint" activates display and notifies with exactly one instruction at the set distance.
Either way: A fixed timeout is not nice and should be changed to switching off X sec after reaching turn.

2. I drove it two times with no confusion by selecting the next points in the right order. Is the guidance mode following the points strictly in the right order (setup: deactivated "intelligent guidance")?

3. Now I know again why I'm not using the guidance mode ;-):
a) I need the small arrow pictures for next turn. If the display goes on and I have a short look to the screen I want to know where to go to. Best visible is the arrow from navigation mode.
b) The map is always moving according compass orientation. That is annoying. A bike is always moving at the handlebars. The map is moving all the time, so nobody can see the track.
Better is the setting of navigation mode. No snap to track, but about a certain speed orientation to GPS direction and only under the limit orientation according compass.
c) Arrowed line to the next next point: Its just confusing.

I added all this behavior to my sheet.

And here we go again. These were the reasons why I changed to navigation mode.

So we can add arrows, instruction algorithm and map orientation plus strictly points in the right order to the guidance mode or
we can add a option "strictly points in the right order" to the navigation mode.

The display on/off thing should be changed for both modes.

What would be better?

Thanks



 

Offline menion

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Re: Navigation Generator
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2015, 15:51:16 »
So my idea, start count down for screen off if wpt is reached, so screen is allways on in area of wpt :)

Little bit complicated in both modes. Anyway consider it as done
- guidance: timer will be reset (means screen turned on and count down reset to 0) when distance from current target (point when blue arrow point) to last command point will be less or equal to "set next point" distance. Which should be exactly the moment you pass this last command point
- navigation: timer will be reset when time to command point will be less or equal 5 seconds.

Testing will be needed, but I think this should work.
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Offline Joachim Buhl

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Re: Navigation Generator
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2015, 15:55:23 »
Hi, sorry one last.

Summary for Menion in my personal order of priority:
1. Info: Current guidance behavior (map orientation, no arrows, fixed instruction at a certain distance) is maybe good for walking or hiking but not for biking. Biking is somehow more similar to car driving.
2. action: Navigation mode with its behavior (option snap to track, map orient. compass below X m/s, turn arrows, instruction distance algorithm) like it is, is very nice but for biking we need the strictly point by point order option.
3. action: Manual adding and deleting of turn instructions -> Done with next Beta, yeah.
3. action: Display on/off should be optimized for all modes. Concept: Display off only after reaching the turn + X seconds -> considered as done.
4. maybe later: different sets of turn instructions short/long.....

Long term wishes maybe not only for Locus:
1. Map data based turn instructions generated along a GPX file. See discussion with Arndt http://forum.locusmap.eu/index.php?topic=4064.new#new

Thanks
 

Offline zossebart

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Re: Navigation Generator
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2015, 13:44:54 »
Hi,

I am too using Locus for bike (MTB) navigation. I have to say I prefer Navigation for this. As Joachim said, the directional arrows are very helpful and the next turn can be quickly determined by a brief look at the screen.
Also, the line to the next point in Guiding is rather confusing on the bike (you normally have not enough time to look at it for a longer time).
I agree that biking is more like car driving and therefore Navigation seems to be more appropriate for this than Guiding.

For me, however, there are some points which could be improved in Navigation to make Locus the perfect bike/MTB navigation solution:

- an option to enable/disable strict ordering of navigation points

- the possibility to reduce the amount of voice orders before a turn (see http://help.locusmap.eu/topic/navigation-limit-the-total-orders-by-user-editable-navi-order-distances). Because on the MTB, in the woods, I neither use earplugs nor want the phone to shout out frequent navigation orders through the speaker. The experimental voice "Samuel" is a solution for this (indicating a left turn by one beep and a right turn by two beeps). However, because there are more than one navigation orders "spoken" out by Locus before a turn, it gets very confusing. For example the navi orders "turn left, then right -> turn right in x meters -> turn right" all between one instruction and the next leads to "beep, beep-beep, beep-beep, beep-beep). So it would be very nice to be able to reduce the "spoken" out navi orders to only one order before a turn (then the above example would lead to a very precise "beep, beep-beep", which I think is sufficient on the MTB)

- Exact turn restrictions only at way crossings (as mentioned by Joachim in the last post). Don't get me wrong, the navigation order generator does a nice job of inserting instructions only on the basis of a raw track, but is of course not able to distinguish between a turn at a crossing and a turn in a curve. So this problem is not solvable by Locus, but is rather a task for the router (e.g. BRouter). In fact, when using an other router (e.g. Mapquest) this is already possible.

I know, of course, that biking is not the only use for Locus, so this are all "nice to haves". Although for me, they would be VERY nice to haves  ;)

regards,
zossebart
 

Offline Joachim Buhl

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Re: Navigation Generator
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2015, 21:05:50 »
Hello

@0709: Thanks for your effort. I tested BaseCamp/Mapsource a while ago and I was not convinced but I will give it a second try. Is it possible to get hillshading with the openfietsmaps in BC/MAPSource?

@Menion: I installed the current beta a few minutes ago. Thanks for your quick response.
- Optimized screen on, will test it on the weekend.
- Point by Point in navigation mode
- Adding of navigation waypoints

nearly perfect......When I convert a point to a navigaton waypoint I sometimes do not get a navigation waypoint. No blue point at this moment. Sometimes after closing of the program and restart a blue ball appears, on sometimes not.

Thanks, great work
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 21:23:37 by Joachim Buhl »
 

Offline menion

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Re: Navigation Generator
« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2015, 21:15:40 »
Perfect, thanks. I wanted to release a new version during Saturday, so maybe I'll wait a day or two :)
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