Locus Map - forum

Development => Discussion/New features => Navigation & Guidance => Topic started by: SonnyS on July 29, 2020, 13:26:54

Title: Route planning
Post by: SonnyS on July 29, 2020, 13:26:54
Often when the route includes an unpaved, yet public road I cannot continue creating the route unless I switch to a walking profile or draw manually.
The roads I'm experiencing trouble with are not private, not gated, not off road trails. They are always open public roads that just don't have asphalt on them. The odd thing is there can be two similar roads in the same area, both appear the same on the map yet one will allow the route to continue and one will not.
I've tried every different Brouter routing profile combination I could.
Is this a Brouter issue or Locus issue ?
I've tried mountain bike profile but then if there is a bike path through the woods it takes that as the shortest route.
My primary use for Locus is Adventure motorcycle riding. That type of riding includes finding as many unpaved roads as possible and planning a journey, whether it be around your area of around the world.
Locus is the most popular app among riders. I know Locus is highly used for bicycling and hiking but anything that could be added to help motorcyclist would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: poutnikl on July 29, 2020, 13:51:52
It would help if you provide a BRouter-web link of such a route ( with whatever profile ) so OSN tagging and connectivity can be tested As it may be the case of denied access, depending on OSM tags associated with a particular OSM way.
Are there non walking profiles without the issue ?

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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: SonnyS on July 29, 2020, 13:59:21
Any profile that is for a motorized vehicle has the issue. It's as if it's labeled the road as off limits to motor vehicles.


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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: poutnikl on July 29, 2020, 14:01:30
Check the table on the BRouter-web for tags of route segments. access related tags would be listed there.

Be aware public roads may be legally forbidden for motorized vehicles, implicitly, or explicitly by traffic signs, and mapped so in OSM And therefore in BRouter RD5 files as well.

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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: SonnyS on July 29, 2020, 14:50:00
Ok I'll check that out.
The roads in particular that I'm speaking of are roads I actually travel often. My concern is that if I cannot plan routes for roads I know are legal public roads for motor vehicles, then when planning a trip in an area I'm not familiar with I will not be able to efficiently plan a route.

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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: poutnikl on July 29, 2020, 14:53:15
You know, the only existing reality for routing profiles is "OSM reality". Check if the road attributes are mapped correctly.

I would say check also "OSM road connectivity", but you have already said walking profiles work OK, so that is not an issue.




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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: SonnyS on July 29, 2020, 15:21:46
I created a partial route using Brouter- Web. Wow that's fantastic I've never used that.
One of the roads in question still won't allow the route to continue in car mode. As you can see on the map it shows it as a trail ?
However it's not. It's a rather wide, smooth gravel road that is never gated and gets vehicle traffic often.

So the issue is in the mapping ?

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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: poutnikl on July 29, 2020, 15:25:10
Use walking or (perhaps better) bicycle profile and tap/click on the icon on the right, the third from the top. Review OSM tags there.

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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: SonnyS on July 29, 2020, 15:35:54
It does allow routing to continue in bicycle profile but it would also do that offline.

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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: SonnyS on July 29, 2020, 15:43:15
Interestingly in shortest profile it allows it to continue.
Offline using shortest - motorcar it does not.



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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: SonnyS on July 29, 2020, 15:47:25
The bad part is even though I can " force " a route to continue by changing the profile, there will be times where it is not a through road.
Opposite side is I bypass roads that are actually accessable by motor vehicle

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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: poutnikl on July 29, 2020, 16:21:24
Then it is possible used profiles refuse to accept tracks or unpaved surfaces.

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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: SonnyS on July 29, 2020, 16:24:38
There is an option to avoid unpaved roads for profile settings.
We would be forever grateful if there was a " prefer unpaved roads " option

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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: poutnikl on July 29, 2020, 16:41:12
Check also if there is "hard refusion" of that unpaved road ( routing there at no circumstances ), or if there is only very high penalty.

In the latter case,BRouter would prefer even quite crazy  detour if possible. If you disable such options by nogo points, it would accept the unpaved road as a last resort.

I remember similar case for a Canadian car driver, as many Canadian roads are unpaved and the original car profiles have very high penalties for unpaved roads.
It was fixed for his case by lowering penalty ( for car-like  profiles by increasing the max speed value ).

BTW, I have told Arndt multiple times the car profiles penalizes unpaved roads too much, what makes them unusable for regions with many unpaved roads.

I remember creating an experimental motorbike profile, preferring more winding roads by negative turning penalty.

As I see multiple motorcycle related posts in BRouter mailgroup or Locus forum, I think they would deserve a dedicated profile author among motorbikers. ;-)

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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: SonnyS on July 29, 2020, 17:40:34


Check also if there is "hard refusion" of that unpaved road ( routing there at no circumstances ), or if there is only very high penalty.

In the latter case,BRouter would prefer even quite crazy  detour if possible. If you disable such options by nogo points, it would accept the unpaved road as a last resort.

I remember similar case for a Canadian car driver, as many Canadian roads are unpaved and the original car profiles have very high penalties for unpaved roads.
It was fixed for his case by lowering penalty ( for car-like  profiles by increasing the max speed value ).

BTW, I have told Arndt multiple times the car profiles penalizes unpaved roads too much, what makes them unusable for regions with many unpaved roads.

I remember creating an experimental motorbike profile, preferring more winding roads by negative turning penalty.

As I see multiple motorcycle related posts in BRouter mailgroup or Locus forum, I think they would deserve a dedicated profile author among motorbikers. ;-)

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I'm not familiar with the penalty settinings. Thank you I'll investigate.
I agree 100% about profile options. Even though so many prefer Brouter /  Locus as primary for offline Navigation they are having to resort to many other apps to create tracks. Some people then just stay with the other app rather than create tracks, convert, then load to Locus.

So what happened to your experimental motorcycle profile ? Sounds interesting


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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: SonnyS on July 29, 2020, 17:47:30
Ah I see a discussion you might have referred to.

https://help.locusmap.eu/topic/brouter-car-mode-truly-hates-unpaved-roads

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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: zossebart on July 30, 2020, 06:31:42
As it happens, another board user asked me if I could adept my mountainbike profile towards enduro motorcycle use some time ago.
He used the mountainbike profile because of it's major road avoidance/gravel road preference but didn't want the path/singletrail preference.

You can find the adepted profile here:
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/zossebart/brouter-misc/enduro-mc/enduro-mc.brf (https://raw.githubusercontent.com/zossebart/brouter-misc/enduro-mc/enduro-mc.brf)

You can paste it into the profile source box in brouter-web to test it (wrench symbol -> Profile-tab -> replace Text with content from enduro-mc.brf -> press Apply).

Maybe it's of use for you, also? Feedback would be appreciated!
Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: poutnikl on July 30, 2020, 08:12:09
I have found some partial discussion about enduro profile...

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!msg/osm-android-bikerouting/WYvLYV5fq0o/0SFoq7OnCgAJ

Note that I am quite hesitant to write specialized motorbike profiles for unpaved roads,as the network of unpaved but allowed roads is quite limited in many countries. Removing profile access restrictions can lead to profile abuse. Ignoring restrictions by 2 or 4 wheel off-road vehicles is often seen even without BRouter.

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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: SonnyS on July 30, 2020, 11:45:37
As it happens, another board user asked me if I could adept my mountainbike profile towards enduro motorcycle use some time ago.
He used the mountainbike profile because of it's major road avoidance/gravel road preference but didn't want the path/singletrail preference.

You can find the adepted profile here:
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/zossebart/brouter-misc/enduro-mc/enduro-mc.brf (https://raw.githubusercontent.com/zossebart/brouter-misc/enduro-mc/enduro-mc.brf)

You can paste it into the profile source box in brouter-web to test it (wrench symbol -> Profile-tab -> replace Text with content from enduro-mc.brf -> press Apply).

Maybe it's of use for you, also? Feedback would be appreciated!

As it happens, another board user asked me if I could adept my mountainbike profile towards enduro motorcycle use some time ago.
He used the mountainbike profile because of it's major road avoidance/gravel road preference but didn't want the path/singletrail preference.

You can find the adepted profile here:
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/zossebart/brouter-misc/enduro-mc/enduro-mc.brf (https://raw.githubusercontent.com/zossebart/brouter-misc/enduro-mc/enduro-mc.brf)

You can paste it into the profile source box in brouter-web to test it (wrench symbol -> Profile-tab -> replace Text with content from enduro-mc.brf -> press Apply).

Maybe it's of use for you, also? Feedback would be appreciated!

Thank you that sounds like it could be the closest profile for Enduro / Adventure motorcycle riding.
It will be a few days before I'm able to try it on Brouter-Web. 99% of my route planning is done offline. I have never used Brouter-Web until yesterday. It's offline ability for route planning and navigation is what makes Locus so excellent.
Would there be a chance to make that profile available offline as part of the optional profiles ? Maybe a Beta run. There are hundreds of people on Adventure Rider forum that ride all over the world that could offer excellent feedback. ADVrider is how I found out about Locus and there is much talk and many questions there. I know people would be excited to try a routing profile that has less limitations.
Here is a link to just one thread.

https://advrider.com/f/threads/locus.989332/


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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: poutnikl on July 30, 2020, 11:50:37
It is called BRouter routing profile, rather than a theme. It is a script like file with extension .brf.

You need not BRouter-web for using custom profiles. You can place the profile in profiles2 subfolder of BRouter data folder ( or BRouter subfolder (I think) within Locus data folder ) and use it as any other BRouter profile.

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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: SonnyS on July 30, 2020, 11:55:57
I have found some partial discussion about enduro profile...

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!msg/osm-android-bikerouting/WYvLYV5fq0o/0SFoq7OnCgAJ

Note that I am quite hesitant to write specialized motorbike profiles for unpaved roads,as the network of unpaved but allowed roads is quite limited in many countries. Removing profile access restrictions can lead to profile abuse. Ignoring restrictions by 2 or 4 wheel off-road vehicles is often seen even without BRouter.

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Yes I'm sure creating a specific profile could come with many issues, and also render the profile not useful in many ways. Unfortunately people will always make their own rules and not only disrespect other people's sport, but they will also ruin it all for everyone. Whether it be going around gates, entering private property or leaving trash. That's what gets trails closed and more areas marked as do not trespass.
I notice there are profiles that are more specific to other countries.
I'm sure that's not an easy task. Then to do that for motorcycles would be a change.

Even if not a specific unpaved surfaces profile for motorcycles, yet one with modifications and less restrictions would be helpful. Less penalties as you put it.

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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: SonnyS on July 30, 2020, 11:57:46
It is called BRouter routing profile, rather than a theme. It is a script like file with extension .brf.

You need not BRouter-web for using custom profiles. You can place the profile in profiles2 subfolder of BRouter data folder ( or BRouter subfolder (I think) within Locus data folder ) and use it as any other BRouter profile.

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Yes correct profile. I was thinking of two things at once and typed the wrong one. I edited my post

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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: poutnikl on July 30, 2020, 12:03:48



Even if not a specific unpaved surfaces profile for motorcycles, yet one with modifications and less restrictions would be helpful. Less penalties as you put it.

Hmm, restrictions in profiles for particular vehicles are there to follow the law. You are not suggesting bypassing it, are you ?

For penalties, it is true unpaved penalties should go down.

It may be question if the parent profile should be a car profile or bicycle(MTB) profile. But it may be useful to have both approaches.



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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: SonnyS on July 30, 2020, 12:36:28
Im not sure exactly how I would insert the code into the subfolder I created. I can use Locus and Brouter but that's about it lol

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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: SonnyS on July 30, 2020, 12:38:10
Absolutely not suggesting anything to bypass any laws.
It's those that bypass laws and private property restrictions that ruin our sports for everyone else.
If a road is legally accessable by motorized vehicles it would be nice to route plan easily on that road


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Title: Re: Route planning
Post by: poutnikl on July 30, 2020, 13:05:19
Im not sure exactly how I would insert the code into the subfolder I created. I can use Locus and Brouter but that's about it lol

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By the same way how you would put *.brf file into a folder on a computer. E.g.by copying via a file manager ( builtin or 3rd party like e.g. Android version of Total Commander ) or pasting code into text editor and saving it as .brf file. ( or combination of both. You can also access phone folders remotely, e.g. via USB or Fifi connection.

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