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Support => Troubles & Questions => Topic started by: jonny.blue on April 28, 2019, 10:01:19

Title: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: jonny.blue on April 28, 2019, 10:01:19
Hi,
my aim is to create a route (with many deviations) for biking which starts and ends at one point.
I want to navigate along the complete route and when I miss the route Locus should lead me back to the next point of the route.

I now tried ( in the test mode with GPS off  8)) several settings ... but no one leads to the desired result.
Version: latest beta 3.37.2.9
Settings:
- Route re-calculation:
   + route priority (with distance 80 m)
- advanced
   + Strict route following on
       - what ever difference this should effect, because I always want to go back to my route when navigation a route
   + max. allowed deviation
      - I set this to 10000 because I don't know what this switching from navigation to guidance should effect

First I created a route with many "minor" streets with shaping points (Screen 1: red=desired;purple="normal" route)

When I start to navigate and leave the route for some meters Locus calculates the complete route new (Screen 2)



Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: jonny.blue on April 28, 2019, 10:18:05
Second try with "Via Points":
I create a via point and started with "point priority".
When I now leave the route Locus points to the first Via Point ... Screen 1

... but the navigation route doesn't start from my GPS position. It just shows the route where I should be.
My active cursor (with my position) stands alone beside the route.

Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: jonny.blue on April 28, 2019, 10:34:22
Another try with via Points:

The first time I leave the route LM recalculates and shows the new route from my GPS point.
When I then left the route for a next time on a different point ... then I can see a blue cursor on the navigation route and my actual position (+) with no connection to the route.
It seems as if recalculation and drawing the route new from actual position only works one time.
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: jonny.blue on April 28, 2019, 10:38:07
Interesting ...  :o

when I activated my screen an tablet (after writing the last post) Locus immediately starts recalculation.

This behaviour can be repeated. I just have to wait until my screen is turned off ... when I activate the screen -> Locus recalculates the route from my GPS point.  ::)
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: jonny.blue on April 28, 2019, 10:47:34
When I then follow the route and stop navigation ... and want to  proceed the route (without having passed
the via point) Locus leads me back to the Via point.
I found no way to proceed my navigation to the end point ...


After some attempts ... I changed my setting to "route priority" ... and now Locus navigates from my position in end direction (without the skipped via point).
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: jonny.blue on April 28, 2019, 10:58:31
As you see from my posts ....

Navigating is really confusing because of many different options with different effects.
At home it's possible to test ... and switch ... and restart .. and switch  ... and test

But last week I did a biking tour with my friends and (almost) every second parking place we stopped and  I needed to justify the route.  :(
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: jonny.blue on April 29, 2019, 19:11:43
After some more tests (and the help from 0709  8)) I found a setting that comes near to my desired behaviour.
I choose "no autorecalculation" ... use some via points (to protect the planned route) ... set manual recalculation to route priority ... increased the size of guidance line (with distance shown) ...
and result is:
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: menion on April 30, 2019, 14:52:06
Good day Jonny,
long post full of testing ... sorry for some bad moments you had with the navigation system.

In recent few days, I made some improvements, mainly related to "route priority" recalculation system. It will need some tests, but I think it looks good. If you are using beta versions, next Beta (end of this week) will include these changes.

I wrote about the coming changes here: https://help.locusmap.eu/topic/via-point-converts-to-sharping-pount#comment-69788 . Required behavior should be exactly what you need. App should with disabled "stick" option, try to push you back on route, but not force you to go back on some trackpoint far away behind you.
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: jonny.blue on May 04, 2019, 10:33:16
Thanks  8), with new beta it is working much more better.
But ... ::)

After recalculating Locus leads me back sometimes just 'a little bit' (without a via point).
Sc1: starting point
Sc2: overview
Sc3: this is what I would see (and hear) on my bike (with zoom according to speed)
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: menion on May 04, 2019, 13:08:20
Hmm not best. Recalculation with route-priority, "stick to route" disabled, right?
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: jonny.blue on May 04, 2019, 16:53:27
Right.  ;)
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: 0709 on May 04, 2019, 22:09:58
Route Priority test.
A standard track to be navigated. No Via Points.
See Locus settings in video. Identical settings ? All ?
Same Brouter profile ? etc....

Locus Pro 3.37.2 simulated drive
https://youtu.be/gwDot4nnRqQ 
Locus Beta 3.37.2.10  simulated drive
https://youtu.be/xtJMIOL8Fds 

- Do not blindly follow autogenerated navigation re-routing proposals !
- Easy fast check and control  by a (manual production yes) trackcopy.
- Display both the copy and track to be navigated.
- Observe suggested (auto)re-routed navtrack deviations !
- Compare the (auto)re-routed navtrack with the original track(copy) reference.


Another example by Locus Map Pro 3.37.2 Strict Navigation: ON !
Simulated drive, identical traject as in the previoius (non strict) examples.
https://youtu.be/RgOMItv_QTg

@ Menion.
By Locus 3.37.2.10. Strict navigation functionality is disabled (broken) ?
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: menion on May 05, 2019, 15:18:12
Hello Willy,
what is the difference between the first two videos? I watched them more than once but still does not see any significant difference. Thanks

I'm just tested Strict mode and it seems to work the same as before.
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: 0709 on May 05, 2019, 16:40:55
Quote
what is the difference between the first two videos? I watched them more than once but still does not see any significant difference.
Exactly...I do not see any difference too. What is changed in Beta ? 
Quote
I'm just tested Strict mode and it seems to work the same as before.
Had a new check by 'Route Priority and Strict. Menion you're right no change indeed.
I probably tested Strict in combination with Point Priority navigation.

UPDATE :
After MULTIPLE tests I confirm the report by jonny and others. (By both Pro and Beta).

https://youtu.be/TlK7vxW3oE0
In video: Repeatable. (By map shift simulation method)
Recalculated track navigates towards an existing target trackpoint. A meeting point where the existing and new generated track are sewed together. The target meeting trackpoint and generated tracksegment result depends on the precise user location when recalculate action is triggered.
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: 0709 on May 10, 2019, 09:47:04
It seems Locus needs a tail detector and cutter. All tracks (no offroad) MUST be (re)generated by B-router source !
In the tail the "main" track and "connect" track toward the "meeting point" are sharing same located trackpoints.
The furthest "main" trackpoint with corresponding same positioned "connect" trackpoint is the optimal NEW meeting point.
See common located trackpoint locations by Prune. > Shared trackpoints.gif
See common located trackpoint locations bij trackpointlist. > Connect and main track shared trackpoint positions.png
A. Locate the tail  B. Remove the tail C. Add path from start point to the NEW meeting point. > Actions.gif
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: menion on May 10, 2019, 16:11:29
Willy, exactly this I've found during the last weekend and made a bigger update in just published 3.27.2.11 Beta version, so please give it a try. Will do too during the weekend :).

EDIT: damn, found one more issue after publishing a new version. Seems that app does not merge two tracks correctly ... yet. So the next version will be needed.
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: poutnikl on May 10, 2019, 18:25:36
Hmm, I guess I have asked @Menion by other words about this possible undesired tailing recently as well. :-) ( not having opportunity to test it yet.)

Odesláno z mého Mi A2 pomocí Tapatalk

Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: poutnikl on May 10, 2019, 19:00:23
The new beta route priority recalculation seems working fine, doing deviations along a precalculated city walking route.

For both GPX based and directly calculated routes.

Odesláno z mého Mi A2 pomocí Tapatalk
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: menion on May 11, 2019, 09:10:24
Surprised it works correctly to you :). Anyway, new version just published.

And now it seems to be working well ...
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: 0709 on May 11, 2019, 13:16:56
A 5.1.1 Locus 3.37.2.12

A quick 'virtual test' only !  Report.

- Main track a (B)router design inclusive nav orders.
- Connect track by (B)router.
Picture > Connect track Brouter meets Main track B-router.png
Result > No tail > No nav order is generated at the (corner) meeting point ?
UPDATE:
Very occasionally a correct navorder at that corner meeting point is generated.
https://youtu.be/96pJ72QetKI

- Main track a recorded track. So no synchro with the B-router generated point positions
- Connect track by (B)router.
Picture > Connect track B-router meets Main track recorded.png
Result > No tail > No nav order before joining the (maintrack) meeting point.
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: menion on May 11, 2019, 13:24:17
Thanks for tests. If you in the first case get some navigation order on "meeting points", it should be more an accident then intent. I was thinking if the app should generate some navigation command on this crossing, but in the end, I've decided to left it rather "empty" then generate incorrect command just based on shape.

In the second case, there seems to be missing single trackpoint on the crossing. It may probably happen. We will see in terrain :). But generally, it seems to work correctly, fine.
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: jonny.blue on May 11, 2019, 14:30:22
Did some (couch-  ;))testing too ... and in many cases it works pretty good. 8)

Only one time it leads me directly back to my starting point  :-\ ... but I couldn't repeat this ...

I think it's time for field test ... (when rain stops  ::))

Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: jonny.blue on May 11, 2019, 18:07:01
PS: can I change the value (30 sec) for delay time of recalculation  in config file?

Would be good for testing ... and maybe even in field ... because:
If Locus doesn't lead back I'm normaly back on route after recalculation. In other case my setting 'distance for recalculate' would prevent from immediately calculation.
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: menion on May 12, 2019, 15:37:26
And raining and raining ... which is fine, nature was really dry.

30sec refresh is hardcoded in the app. If you want to trigger it earlier, you may simply over navigation menu manually, so I believe there is no need for customization here.
30 seconds is from my point of view optimal limit to prevent too frequent recalculation. And years of usage confirmed this :).
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: 0709 on May 12, 2019, 21:59:57
- The tail cutter is too agressive as ALL tails inclusive the planned ones in the main route_track are cut away by both route priority and point priority methods !

Suggestion ;-)  Sure, I know easier said than implemented

- By Route Priority. Detect and remove only those paths where the connecting track toward the meeting point covers the main track. The next uncovered part of the Main track should be kept intact as planned.
- By Point Priority. Make Via Points > MUST Pass Points. To be 'consumed by the navigator one by one in perfect numeric order. (Via Point list)
 Skip a Via Point at operation ? By a 'Via Skip' Button > Manual user intervention, that quickly changes the active Via Point list.
  A +/- similar user intervention to do as in the usual commercial car gps systems.

Compare Locus Pro versus Locus Beta.
- Locus Pro 3.37.2_route and point priority.gif
- Locus Beta 3.37.2.12_route and point priority.gif
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: 0709 on May 12, 2019, 22:01:48
Second file.
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: menion on May 13, 2019, 07:21:00
Hello Willy,
thanks for the tests.

Point-priority: are there any changes in Beta version? Should not. Via-points are really must-pass points.
Option to skip via-point is really missing as well as the option to add via-point during navigation. I've well aware of it and it's planned.

Route-priority: what happens to you should really not happen :). Send me please your route as GPX, I'll test it, thanks.
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: 0709 on May 13, 2019, 08:03:21
Quote
Via-points are really must-pass points.
Strict Must Pass ? no no

-  https://help.locusmap.eu/topic/via-point-converts-to-sharping-pount#comment-70014

-  https://www.locusmap.eu/another-playing-with-locus-navigation-settings/
   -  4. Strict navigation with auto recalculation
       - Locus isn’t so strict and after a few seconds goes on navigating along the route:

The test file:  Staart.gpx
In and out trajects in real situations ? When ?
- An example: In and out path to a View Point (Tower)...A must visit Via ;-)
 


Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: jonny.blue on May 13, 2019, 10:35:28
Quote
30 seconds is from my point of view optimal limit to prevent too frequent recalculation. And years of usage confirmed this :).

No problem  ...  :)
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: menion on May 13, 2019, 12:53:47
@0709
Heh, same as in my answer 11 days ago on the help desk (https://help.locusmap.eu/topic/via-point-converts-to-sharping-pount#comment-70014), I mix two cases, sorry :).

We talk here about recalculation, so I again wanted to say that for point-priority, via-points are must-pass.

Anyway, new version 3.37.2.13 just published and it should solve
a) issue with via points & route-priority as in attach file (thanks for help)
b) added hopefully nice tool that should prevent recalculation back if user ignore "turn back" 2 times. So if you ride forward, app two times recalculate back and you still ride forward, 3rd recompute should be forward and not backward.
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: 0709 on May 13, 2019, 17:03:57
Results in attachment.
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: menion on May 16, 2019, 08:40:44
uff, both issue should be fixed, thanks. The whole system is quite sensitive on indexes, so I'm sure there will be a situation when the result won't be perfect. Step by step to victory :).
Thanks Willy!
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: 0709 on May 21, 2019, 11:36:10
I also tested complicated navtracks with overlapping paths and some navigation waypoints with exact same positions at the out and return path.

So I did run into an already known troublemaker issue generating bad instructions by uncorrect attached navwaypoints to trackpoints. After a recalculation, the expected correct Nav Points are replaced by unconsumed Nav Points, generating false instructions.
Ooh ooh that fragile trackpoint_navigationwaypoint method  ::)

I carefully observed when or where this  bad behaviour is generated by Locus.
Easy repeatable issue by the attached demo files: Testreport, gpx Navtrack and pdf.
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: jonny.blue on June 29, 2019, 22:41:10
After now 2 month of discussion and developement I want to give a (positive) feedback. ;)

I tried the new version now with two longer biking routes .... and navigation along a route works (almost) perfect. 8)

I planed the route within route planer /brouter ... included some caches ... choosed my biking profile ... and the fun could start.

I was a little scared ::) when I saw the first deviation ... but all worked well. :)

Some missed turns by me leads to some further deviations ... but more or less I found back to my route without stoping on every second parking place. ;D

Thx for your work and patience .... today for me it was great fun just to ride and get guided by Locus. 8)


Within those deviations I saw that it really wouldn't help if you recalculate to much (because I set my distance for recalculation to 40m) but ... I had a new idea: ::)

The problem when you leave your planed route is that Locus leads you directly back from your current positon.
While walking this is no problem ... but with car or bike it's almost impossible.
Maybe it's better (when motorized movement) to navigate straight in the actual direction and look for a "allowed" turn.
Then it would be not such a stress to have no possible guidance (because turning on street is most time not possible) ...
The second advantage would be that if you decide to ignore this short turn ... the next possible turn is generated or maybe even a better route back is found. (That's very near to my car navigation).

Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: 0709 on July 01, 2019, 14:42:56
Experience with the return autoblocking method is +.
(I compared with older version).
My Settings:
Out of track alert: 75m 
Autorecalculate: 100m.

I prefer autoblock return after SINGLE auto recalculation.
I prefer previously versions FAST response recalc method.

1. Ignoring 2 out of track alerts is enough.
2. Hardcoded 30s recalc delay is not usefull.

Fast responsive mode. (= without recalc delay)
At 75 m The first out of track ALERT.  Ignore ?
At 100 m Recalculation. (Return)
At 175 m The second out of track ALERT.  Ignore ?
At 200m  Recalculation.

Hardcoded 30 s recalc delay. Ex: Fast bike 36kmh.
At 75 m The first out of track ALERT. Ignore ?
At 100 m Recalculation. (Return)
At 175 m The second out of track ALERT. Ignore ?
At 400 m Recalculation....???  Tooo late !
= (Locus nav already missed that nice alternative path !)

btw..(long) Tail problematic (occasionaly still does happen)
But need more tests for a report !
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: menion on July 01, 2019, 15:08:28
@jonny.blue
thanks for the feedback. The positive one is rare and always welcome :).

When we talk about recalculation & BRouter, it is a little bit complicated. Locus Map already sends to BRouter information about the direction of users movement. It has a small effect on the final router, but not so big.

Current solution: Locus Map perform two recalculations in a row. When results of both are ignored, it places no-go point behind your movement which blocks recalculation back. So, if you miss turning and will ride still straight, in the worst case after 90 seconds you receive the result that won't force you back.

As Willy correctly mentioned, there are two options that may be fine-tuned (among others).
- number of ignored recalculations till way back is blocked (may be created as an optional parameter)
- hardcoded timeout (is in app +- since begin, have to be improved in the code itself)
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: menion on July 01, 2019, 20:28:11
@0709
to the problem with "recalculation" ... believe it's better now, thanks!

Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: 0709 on July 02, 2019, 12:55:48
#36 Tnks.
Tail generation (auto)recalculate trouble is not optimally solved.
- Some smaller issue's as example in attached picture.
- LONG (*sticky) return tail generation very occasionally happens.
 * Only solution by a Navigation restart @ changed position.

@Menion. Open (chat) idea. Not sure if ok, or realisable ? 

Route (MAIN) Priority (auto)recalculate. First time right ?
Recalculate by (any)trigger, only toward unconsumed MAIN trkpt's !
(Prevent sticky ? Do not recalculate toward the Connect path ! )

A. Find nearest MAINtrkpt by AIRline. (= MAINtrkpt x).
B. (NEW) Find optimal MAIN meeting trkpt.

Check ONROAD distance gps position -> MAINtrkpt's.
1. Gps to maintrkpt x : = y meter.
2. Gps to maintrkpt x+1: = y meter. Shorter ? Y = next
3. Gps to maintrkpt x+2 = y meter. Shorter ? Y = next
4. Gps to maintrkpt x+3 = y meter. Shorter ? N = Meeting trkpt.
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: CabrioTourer on July 20, 2019, 11:28:08
Just a (hopefully) small improvement idea.

Right now the no go area after two recalculation is set behind you.
Sometimes there is just in front of you an alternative way back to the point you missed. This means the goal of the no go area doesn't twork in this scenario.
Maybe it's better to place the no go area to the point you missed instead or in addition.

This should solve the problem.

I vote for an option when the no go area is set. In my case (car) I woul set it to zero. Means don't guide me back from the beginning.

Nevertheless thanks for the work you did in this area. Very welcome improvement.
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: menion on July 26, 2019, 08:29:11
Hi guys, sorry for the small delay in my answer.

@0709
are you able to provide me (for example short video) where is visible incorrectly computed too long tail? Best for me is to simulate this problem so I can play with it a little bit, thanks.

@CabrioTourer
Nogo on missed point ... hmm does it make sense in case of "route-priority" recalculation?
... to be true, I do not have good feeling about it because I worry a lot of side effects, like completely blocked only way to target etc. Do you also have some example where this approach should make a big difference?
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: 0709 on July 29, 2019, 11:01:04
Quote
are you able to provide me (for example short video) where is visible incorrectly computed too long tail?
Demo route and slow speed moving by Lockito app.
(5kmh prevent 30sec recalc limitation)
See attachments. Pdf + files.

Route Priority.

Test 1: Route WITHOUT Via Points !
1. Where Connect route (track) meets Main route (track) = FALSE (LEFT) command.
2. No long tail generation.

Test 2: Route INCLUSIVE Via Points !
1. Where Connect route (track) meets Main route (track) = FALSE (LEFT) command.
2. Long tail generation (toward connect track > Via Point ?)  = Unexpected behaviour !


Expected:

POINT PRIORITY:  > Via Point functionality: 
1. Usefull for announcement along track: YES.
2. Unique target points for (auto)recalculation (inclusive eventual return tail to target): YES

ROUTE PRIORITY:  > Via Point functionality:
1. Usefull for announcement along track: YES.
2. Unique target points for (auto)recalculation: NO.
    Not unique as by route priority ALL route/trackpoints can be promoted into target points.
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: jonny.blue on August 31, 2019, 16:27:00
Hi,
I switched to new 😎 phone with Android 9 Pie .... and after some struggling with settings ( especially power save settings ) all works well and I did my first bike tour today. 😎

With the new phone my hope was even with setting: 'enable/disable screen - turn on when notifying a track command'  changing to another app could work without entering a pin.

But ... also with new opportunities of android system to stay online Locus asks me for a pin when I change to another app ( GPS Status, even to Locus addon geocaching)
I wonder if this is really necessary or what triggers this behaviour.

- in android I disabled my lock mode while near to my trusted bluetooth headset ... so I don't need to unlock my phone.
- in Locus I don't activate 'disable screen lock'.

Therefore I hoped I can switch (when parking 😉) to other apps without entering a pin ( whyever fingerprint isn't requested).

Anyone any idea ... ?
Title: Re: Problems with navigating a route
Post by: menion on September 09, 2019, 18:23:13
Hello Jonny,
you have "trusted device" as your BT set and even if this BT headset is connected, device require a PIN when the screen is turned on?

"Disabled screen lock" is not reliable feature and on some devices, it does not work correctly. In recent version will be a minor update that may help on some devices (but only on some, so still no guarantee).

Anyway, one thing is turning the screen on directly by Locus and a different then switch to another app. For both cases should work "trusted devices". Only for the first should work "disabled screen lock".