Hi guys,
maybe two, maybe even more years before, we started to feel a small financial push.
New people in the team (five now), increased pricing of used services (like GraphHopper, where we are currently already beyond their max. paid tariff, AppEngine, hosting servers and mailing and other servers).
On the second side, quite similar or just slowly growing income from one-time payments and little grow from income in Locus Store (which is quite low in the end because of small provisions we have from sales). Very increasing support on help desk from more than 600k active users from all 10 years when Locus Map is on Google Play (close to need for a special person who will take care just support), etc.
So maybe a year ago we decided we have to change this. And solution we decided for is well described by Michal in his new blog post (https://www.locusmap.eu/locus-map-lets-talk-future/).
Maybe not all is clear from this blog post, also not all is set and we have many open questions. I do not want to come one day with "ready solution", so rather we published this information a few months before it begins, to have some time to discuss it with users.
I saw already created German topic here on forum regards this topic, but I think it will be fair to discuss it directly with me. So feel free to ask, suggest, discuss etc. I'm open to any changes if they will be doable and make sense, as usual.
I understand the decision, but I foresee a lot of discussion here with the user base.
Will be some advanced settings/features, available for free, but in LM Pro only, be part of the subscription ?
If yes, then many Pro users, who are not fans of subscription philosophy(for various reasons), will probably stay with the LM classic as long as possible.
Or, until the drawback of not developed application forces them to decide for the new Free or Subscribed LM ( or rather not OR... :-). )
What about 2 level subscription, Pro and Pro Premium ? The former would be equivalent to LM Pro without premium features.
I can imagine the gap between the free and subscribed LM can be too big.
For some, the former may be too "crippled" and the latter with more features they need. Non premium lower subscription without finance hungry features would split the gap.
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Thanks for good questions.
We named Locus Map Pro as "Locus Classic" from one main reason that also solves many troubles we have. Many users complain about changes we from time to time in the application. Locus Classic should become rock stable in terms of stability and also in terms of UI changes. It remains actively updated to keep working on all coming android versions. Also, because source code will still be shared between all Locus apps, many "minor" updates will be also updated in this "Locus Classic" (like nice example: new map core we work on will be 100% also in Locus Classic, etc.).
At the start, we do not have extra features to offer in subscription (there is 75% chance that some basic sync will be ready, but not 100%), so I do not expect any massive movement from Locus Map Pro to this new model. There won't be a serious reason for this and I'm the last one who wants to push anyone.
The main advantage to start will be some trial time (probably 14 days) so users may try paid functions (which was not possible till now except Beta testing) without paying and also the fact, that if you use app mainly for season (like two months over summer), you just subscribe these two months and do not have to pay one bigger price.
Anyway, over time, some changes will be coming so it will be on everyone.
We also think about two levels of subscription as you mentioned. One as cheap as possible that will be equal to current Locus Map Pro and the second (probably somewhere around 3€/month) which will include some features we also have to pay for, like complete access to LoMaps, some private increased storage for backup of maps, hopefully some other paid content etc. But this is definitely not clear even to us and we first have to find logical content, otherwise this does not make sense.
Hope I've answered your questions.
For me the fundamental topic that all users hopefully agree on is: folks who work hard on an app like Locus, which is way beyond an after hours hobby, they need to have a living and not need to sing on Old Town Square - it's as simple as that.
I hope Asamm has or builds a master XLS-Sheet that allows to play with a number of options, assumptions, risks, what if, etc. etc. to make the right judgement call.
just some random comments...I paid $A10 for Locus Pro in late 2014, and very little for LoMaps ever since then. I give a little back with some testing but I've made some comments over the years that the Locus team deserve far more reward for their hard work. From discussion with another app developer it seems Google through their own pricing push developers towards subscription model rather than once-off up-front payment. A friend recently mentioned he uses free Maps.Me app - I note 50,000,000 users - why so popular? For me, far inferior to Locus, but clearly not for others. So in their model maybe the advertising pays for development. I don't see this working for Locus. Personally I prefer the one-off (larger) fee than subscription. EU3 x 12 per year sounds high to me. But remember before the Apple iPhone or decades ago, these equivalent programs running a PC would have cost $1000's! Just a ramble of thoughts sorry.
As I already wrote as a comment to the blogpost: I would be happy to pay for an abo to support the great work of the Locus developers.
At the moment I pay for updated LoMaps from time to time to get new version of the POIs (to use with OAM-Maps). I always felt a bit guilty for not spending more to support the developers.
In the german thread some fear that Brouter offline routing will be only available builtin in the abo version of Locus 4.0. Are there any plans yet how Brouter will be supported? Only builtin or will it also be possible to call external Brouter app as it is implemented in current version?
Especially regarding custom BRouter scripts, not to be limited to the ones build in to LocusMap.
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Thanks guys for positive and constructive thinking.
I believe there is no need to worry about the usage of BRouter. Firstly, there is nothing in my head except "It is really needed to integrate offline navigation better into app". Currently, using BRouter or offline GraphHopper is really cumbersome and I really want to improve this.
But
a) I did not discuss this with Arndt or Peter Karich (GraphHopper), so nothing is decided or "allowed"
b) I can't imagine limiting using of BRouter or GraphHopper, so no need to worry about
And maps.me as Andrew wrote is an interesting app. Marketing for sure do a lot, I was never able to understand this no matter what I learned :). Also simplicity and target group? Locus is far more specialized and "tuned". And well, made by a lot smaller team :)
And btw. 3x12€ is far more then we plan. I believe we will be somewhere between 10€-15€ per year, definitely no more.
My thoughts currently are, you cannot keep Pro more or less fresh, but also maintain the subscription version at the same time. I'd rather do one version, maybe a special offer for pro users, and for those who want it rock solid, declare sporadically some versions as solid and allow for download in case of emergency.
Also add the beta branch via Google Play mechanism. For sure you will have changes in the database in mind. Just my lose thoughts.
Do major version steps and meaningful enhancements as not free updates. Subscription for ease of use (maps download, elev., gns files etc) but allow for manual implant just as we do now.
Woooo,it's difficult I guess.
Why do you think it is not possible to have Locus Classic in permanent maintenance mode?
Offer something to current Pro users is quite a problem. We have no access to information who and when purchased Pro version. All these info are hidden somewhere deep in Google database without any external access. We can only manually check (in Google Play console web page) if the certain email address made a purchase. Which is useless for some automatic system.
Because I think it will waste your time too much. 2 branches.
Understand. I still think it is manageable. It is very similar to Free and Pro now ...
Anyway, what you suggest is something, we may do later if there will be a problem. These are also our back doors. In case of total fail, there will still be "Pro" version and it's users. So we just refund subscriptions, cut few services and web pages to limit outcome and let's move on ...
Or, in the second case, all will work fine, I can imagine we hire a guy that will communicate with users and one by one (or some web page with the semi-automatic system) and we help them transfer to the new version with some benefits, probably based on the age of their purchase. And "Classic" will be put to ice.
But I still believe that it will be possible, without extra hard work, to manage both versions at once.
Well, look at it also from our point of view. The easiest solution should be to stop Locus Map Pro as is and create new Product "Locus Map 4" based on subscription. This was used some time ago by Sygic (if I remember correctly) and at least two apps I had purchased. This is anyway not what I want even it is the easiest solution. You/users expect lifetime updates, but this may hardly work on a long term basis. On the Android it works for games (with very short life-cycle per user) and for old apps that were created in times when no option for subscription existed (like Locus Map). But most of the apps try to use it and there is a really good reason for this ... maintainability.
So my solution is to give a try and keep Locus Map Pro (Locus Classic) updated, so users get what they paid for > working Locus Map application with all features they paid for.
Definitely a hard terrain and a niche market.
What I see as a chance for offering something unique is the wide area of statistics.
I'm thinking eg. GPS Trackanalyse. net, which is discontinued. And there's no seriously good "everybodies darling" solution for this.
And is Locus a standard for the Geocaching people? I think it is not.
Practical stuff. Math. Find areas with lots of slope. Etc etc, there is a lot of useful things that could be done for the sports ppl. Well you may know (Helpdesk Suggestions 😁).
Poi need love. Overlays need love. Ah, whom do I tell...
In your goal to offer better user support as with download of brouter routing files, please also consider updating the geonames files. Currently I do it manually.
http://download.geonames.org/export/dump/
I purchased Locus Pro years ago and I was actually wondering that I'm still getting free updates. I wouldn't mind if every few years there is a new main version and that I have to pay again (or to pay an upgrade fee) if I want to use the new version.
I don't know yet, if I would get a subscription. It might be an alternative. But if I get one and that later for some reason I have to stop it, I would like to be able to continue to use the last version of locus map I got before stopping the subscription. I mean for the offline functions. If there are online services included in the subscription (like unlimited access to the current LoMaps), it would be completely ok, that I don't habe access to it anymore after stopping the suscription.
What about changing all without changing too much?
Why don't you use locus coins for this?
For example, I can buy 1200 locus coins and put them in my account, the monthly subscription coins are deducted each month. In this way those who want to activate locus for a month can do it without spending too much, for example on the 100 per month, the old users will buy locus coins for a year and so on.
You can keep special offers for those who buy large packages and everyone would be happy.
I would eliminate the free version. Locus 4 could be free (free to try) for new users for a maximum of the first week and then paid through the locus coins.
You can also give 1200 coins to those who have bought locus in the last year so as not to penalize them.
Quote from: lor74cas on April 15, 2019, 11:18:11
I would eliminate the free version. Locus 4 could be free (free to try) for new users for a maximum of the first week and then paid through the locus coins.
You can also give 1200 coins to those who have bought locus in the last year so as not to penalize them.
I suppose many users would be disappointed by absence of the free version.
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@jerome
we were thinking about this. It is good old method in the world of desktop computers, but unfortunately, there is no simple method, how to do this on the Android platform. The only option is to always publish a completely new application on Google Play, which is a really really bad idea (may needs many changes in app, all addons stop work with every update, rating and reviews are lost on Google Play, all direct links on Google Play will be invalid and many many more problems).
@lor74cas
I see two disadvantages here.
- missing Free version (currently used by approx. 60% of active users!) and
- (mainly) need for current Locus Map Pro users, pay a subscription for next months. Which, as I wrote before, not what I want.
I'm absolutely convinced that is perfectly fair, to keep current Locus Map Pro working and updated for current paid users without the need for any additional payments.
Because of this, change of Locus Map Free to "freemium" application sounds for us still as the clearest and most flexible solution.
Quote from: menion on April 15, 2019, 12:50:23
I see two disadvantages here.
- missing Free version (currently used by approx. 60% of active users!) and
This 60% does not contribute to paying salaries, it only generates popularity in the store. If even a fraction of these went to the paid version you would have some profits.
There would always be a free trial period and subsequent periods that can be purchased at low prices.
Quote from: menion on April 15, 2019, 12:50:23
- (mainly) need for current Locus Map Pro users, pay a subscription for next months. Which, as I wrote before, not what I want.
I'm absolutely convinced that is perfectly fair, to keep current Locus Map Pro working and updated for current paid users without the need for any additional payments.
Because of this, change of Locus Map Free to "freemium" application sounds for us still as the clearest and most flexible solution.
Any user of locus pro who paid 10 euros for his application after two years would still be willing to pay to support this software. If you give a year of free subscription or coins equivalent to those who have registered in the last year you will not disappoint them.
Removing the possibility to use a limited version of the application for Free is really not what I want. It's not just about some trial time for testing. There are more factors like using paid access only two summer months etc.
Giving some time of subscription for current Locus Map Pro users sound interesting. Many people wrote this already, but there is quite a technical problem we are simply unable to solve. Anyway it has time, so we will try to think about it, thanks.
Menion wrote that 60% of the users use the free version. With what motivation will these 60% of the current Locus users will continue to report bugs or suggest improvements when they will not longer benefit from these changes?
1. as I know, users of Free version report and generally help with developing a lot less than Pro version users ... which is expected
2. exactly for these users, nothing changes! Locus Map Free will be Locus Map and will be the main active app with same (and growing) functionality. So maybe there is some missunderstanding about how we will change the current Free/Pro model?
My everyday phone is an iPhone, but because I want to use Locus and a couple of other navigation apps that only work well on Android, I use an Android phone for navigation. It always surprises me how Android users complain about having to pay a little for really great apps.
Locus is a superb app and in my view well worth a lot more than you currently charge; especially if it provides you the means and encouragement to maintain, refine and develop new features.
I guess many users are rather against paying transactions themselves than against paying itself.
Also, many people are against suspicious at subscription philosophy as seen at big SW players like Microsoft or Adobe, that tend to draw a lot of money per small amounts.
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I made a poll among my bike mates: three riders with Locus Free, two with Locus Pro. Locus was recommended by me some years ago. Zero out of five will pay for any subscription for Locus 4.
Arguments of the guys: "Locus is more than I need. Locus has errors not fixed since... years. Upcoming features are uncertain and not for mountain bikers...."
Just for information.
gee it would be tough being a small developer these days; no one wants to pay for anything :(
Thanks guys for the feedback.
It is possible that it will be one big fail as Christian wrote (based on "field test"). There is always a risk. My intuition works correctly since begin and I believe, it will work again.
Well, from long term sustainability, there is no other choice. Anyway, we have something useful to offer, we try to have fair friendly style regards to price, communication etc. Market with hike/bike apps is big. Which is good. It a) learn users to use mobile phones for this kind of activity and b) everyone may choose. Win:win for all.
Options like bigger paid updates are a big technical problem, mainly because such system is not natively supported by Google Play. So subscription, which usage is globally highly growing, is the best choice.
And it's correctly only partially Andrew. Big companies are able to pay services from other incomes in their product portfolio. Google Maps are free for users because they are paid by income from ads etc. So yes, it is hard for small teams, because they are unable to offer "all for free" system. Fortunately, some people understand it and are willing to pay one/two beers for something that has benefit for them.
It's funny, but I understand the problem we discuss here well. I'm paying subscription for Medium, Google Play Music and few other services, but it took me also some time, till I realized that this is a perfectly logical and expected solution of "where to get the useful content/feature" problem :).
So I believe, all was said. I'll gladly answer any specific questions, but general discussion if the subscription is or isn't an ideal solution, is not useful. We globally confirmed in the whole team this week that it is a way we will go this year.
One summary: Locus Map Pro will be renamed to Locus Classic. It WILL BE still developed and updated! Huge source code base will be still shared between both versions, so fixes and changes in existing features will be updated in Locus Classic as well! So worries that app stop work in the near future are useless. Dot.
I don't know much about English. If you have any complaints about the text, please contact deepl.
Why does everything have to be free? Locus is the best geocaching app I've had so far and I like to pay for it. Also for every new version every 1 or 2 years. I also buy a new virus scanner or firewall every year - but not subscriptions to it.
Example:
Locus 3 costs 8 Euro and all updates are included.
Locus 4 costs 10Euro and all updates are included.
Locus 5 costs 12Euro and all updates are included.
etc.
This is your reaction to rising personnel costs and inflation etc.
Only the basic functions like in the Pro are included. Who wants extras (Brouter, Cloud, Backups, etc.) buys modules.
Somehow more pleasant than abos. See Microsoft Office 365. Also doesn't work well and Microsoft is offering purchase versions again (Office 2019).
I also don't like the Locoin idea.
Example. A card costs 160L. I have to buy 200L. If something costs 1,90 Euro, I want to pay only 1,90 Euro and not 2,38 Euro. There is always a rest of Locoins left, but I don't get anything for it anymore.
These overpayments will surely discourage the majority of users from using the Locusstore. Why not pay a real card price directly via Paypal?
That would be my ideas. As buyer and user. I do not want to have anything for free, but also not money for unused.
Certainly not easy to realize.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
There will be an option for 1 year subscription, so what is the big difference compared to paying for firewall every year?
The only logical difference is, that most of the apps (not all from my experience) work after the paid year expires.
"Problem" with LoCoins is another story. We are aware of this, but without the web version of Locus Store, it is not easily solvable. Not on the road plan for next months.
Another thing that often emerges in users' comments is that Locus is packed with features that most of them don't use. But these functions have a cost to support, development, cloud servicies, customer service, etc.
Many would pay for the things they really use, many apps for this purpose use paid plugins, such as Tasker. Is it possible to make paid plugins with subscription?
It would also make Locus lighter by installing only the plugins that one wants around a solid rock core with generic functions.
For example:
Locus Base
Geocaching Plugin
WMS Plugin
Cluod Plugin
LT Plugin
...
Also the updates would concern the specific plugin instead of involving the whole app every time.
Locus Base could also be free or donate.
It could also be a way to identify the services currently present in Locus that are uneconomical and under-utilized
Separation of functionality into pluggable modules is planned and since version 3.38 finally technically possible. This should help to make app smaller (install/updates) and partially easier (by removing access to these features in the app when not needed > like geocaching for people that do not play it) to use. So definitely something I'll work on in the near future.
Dividing payments for certain services/features make perfect sense in cases, services have some higher, logical price. In this case, we talk about smaller features (in terms of price) where "all in one" will be for around 1-2€ per month.
If we create, in the future, some big feature that itself will cost more then 1 or 2€ per month, it will be absolutely logical to consider placing it as separate purchase/subscription, without changing price of the base subscription.
I absolutely love Locus but there's loads of features I never use. I quite agree that the current business model isn't sustainable: there's continual development work which is only funded by new users and Locus Store customers.
I don't think that individual paid-for modules is a very good business model either. The fewer users they appeal to, the higher the price you'll end up having to set for individual modules and the fewer users will buy them.
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Quote from: Holger on April 26, 2019, 09:25:53
I also don't like the Locoin idea.
@Holger - LoCoins are very cheap. They seem very good value to me. Almost too good. I always hope the Locus team continue and expand and become more & more successful, and I'm not forced to switch to another app in future if some version becomes incompatible. And when you next make a purchase but you have insufficient LoCoints you just "top up" with a small amount (only a few cents or dollars) of real money.
The current development, especially since the decision has already been made, unfortunately makes me look for another app, although I used Locus very gladly.
Will Locus Basic have ads as former free version?
Quote from: Saturo on April 27, 2019, 09:18:41
The current development, especially since the decision has already been made, unfortunately makes me look for another app, although I used Locus very gladly.
@Saturo - will be interested to read what app you find.
i would much rather have a DONATE button included in the current PRO application and free application.
subscriptions always end up having "phone home" issues when i don't have service, or sooner strange error that requires a reinstall/phone home. i simply cannot recommend subscription based applications because of these problems.
i bet you could very easily convince folks to punch the 'donate' button with your usual awesome updates. i know i would.
anyway, that's all the whining i will do.
if you include a DONATE button in pro/classic/whatever, I'll press it, hard.
Quote from: menion on April 26, 2019, 08:46:35
....It is possible that it will be one big fail as Christian wrote (based on "field test"). There is always a risk. My intuition works correctly since begin and I believe, it will work again...
Don't get me wrong. Finger crossed for the new direction!
To avoid big mistakes... have a look at the Tapatalk App with the change of their licence system two years ago and their behavior in Europe since the EU wide data protection regulation came into force.
By the way: what is the status regarding Locus using Google Framework sending user data to Google / Facebook / ...?
menion, I really, really appreciate your work, your fast support and the whole work your team is doing for Locus Pro !
I love the app so much and use it so many times I can not imagine how it would be without this app.
But your idea of the subscription model disappoints me a lot - I payed for LocusPro and pay for the Lomaps; but I can not imagine to pay more than 10€ a year for using the new version.
For sure you have to be paid for your work, but so many people pay for the Pro version (and maybe aswell for the LoMaps).
There are so many travellers on the road who do not have so much money - and imagine the new modell would cost 1,50/months (18Euro/year) - already in 5 years you would have to pay 90 Euros...!!
It would be great to have further (real) updates aswell for the "old" Pro version - and the new V4-version maybe with an one-off payment of lets say 50 Euro or so - but then for lifetime usage!
Otherways it would be just not affordable for a lot of people - and therefore some will use other apps.
I really hope this abo-model is being rethought!
Best wishes, bezel
@Christian
problem with Facebook API was discussed on the help desk here (https://help.locusmap.eu/topic/locus-map-communicates-secretly-with-facebook). There is probably nothing I may do now. I hope there will be soon an option to separate certain features in Locus Map app into separate downloadable blocks. If this will be possible, I'll also try to separate "Facebook", which should solve this.
And Google? Not sure what there is a problem. I miss anything?
@bezel
thanks for the feedback. I believe there is no need to extra worry. Firstly, you still may stay with Locus Map Pro as is now. And secondly, we will definitely keep price in logical boundaries. Definitely not something like 20€/year. For such price, app have to offer something more that we are currently able to offer.
Anyway, because I spend most of time on new version and improvements related to maps etc. we will start with this concept a little later, on 90% in September/October. So we will discuss and inform about details during summer.
Spoiler: to bring little light from our latest internal discussions, we will try to keep price for full version to 10€/year where should be also full unlimited access to LoMaps and hopefully also some kind of synchronization server. Because I'm sure there are people not interested in LoMaps & sync, I would like to bring also some kind of "light" subscription with probably half price that won't include these two features. Consider these information as "work in progress" with a chance to change as we do some more calculations. Thanks!
Dear menion,
please rethink the prices - it would be very sad for us users if it wouldn't be affordable anymore. People who like to have further features like the mentioned kind of "cloud service" (to save for example their tracks), live tracking etc could pay more - not all need these extra features and it would be sad if they have to pay for such services aswell.
Good idea is as you mentioned to include free acces to all LoMaps and LoMap-POIs.
I really hope so much you will find a satisfactory solution for everyone. Locus is such a great help when travelling - I do not want to switch to another app...
Hello bezel,
in your case "wouldn't be affordable anymore" is the reaction on the possible price of 10€/year? I'm not sure if it's possible to go to the lower price with LoMaps and synchronization system. Even this price is for us a small risk I think.
Quote from: menion on April 30, 2019, 14:44:31
to bring little light from our latest internal discussions, we will try to keep price for full version to 10€/year
I appreciate others have different views but for too long I feel I've paid very little for so much, so I am very happy with ~10€/y.
Andrew, with all amazing help you do all these years, you are the last person who should pay for Locus app :). But it is a different story ... later ...
well, 10€/year - but how would it be then in two, three, five years then? 15€, 20€ ...?
There are people "on the road" (who are travelling) who do not have much money - and especially do not need further features like cloud services, live tracking etc..
To be true, I'm not sure this discussion leads anywhere...
So hopefully last quick summary:
- We really try to be fair, so current Locus Map Pro will stay updated, working, fine-tuned, even it's quite extra work for us!
- we will (most probably) try to provide two versions of subscription, where the "as cheap as possible" will be without mentioned cloud features, free LoMaps, etc.
- there will still exist the possibility to use Locus Map without paying, same as current Locus Map Free, which I believe is still well usable application
I'm sure, this allows to choose to everyone.
Quote from: ThomasD. on April 27, 2019, 11:53:13
Will Locus Basic have ads as former free version?
This question is still unanswered.
The answer is not yet known.
Anyway, expected steps: since begin, ads most probably remain as is. If the subscription system will work, I will definitely vote for a small gift to remove ads from the top map screen. I'm sure we all agree that ads do not belong to the "professional" application.
Quote from: menion on April 30, 2019, 14:44:31
to bring little light from our latest internal discussions, we will try to keep price for full version to 10€/year where should be also full unlimited access to LoMaps and hopefully also some kind of synchronization server. Because I'm sure there are people not interested in LoMaps & sync, I would like to bring also some kind of "light" subscription with probably half price that won't include these two features. Consider these information as "work in progress" with a chance to change as we do some more calculations. Thanks!
I find those numbers perfectly acceptable.
Metoo
Thanks, guys, appreciate it. It will, of course, have some delay :).
I have a question about translation:
I have translated most of LocusMap in current version. Are you using the same text strings that already have been translated, or will there suddenly come a day when we have to translate everything again for the new version?
I am looking forward to the new version, and I find the price 10€/year acceptable for the most comprehensive hiking map there is.
Hello,
as I mentioned before, "new" Locus Map and good old Locus Classic (Pro) will still share most of its source code. They will also share most of its translation.
Sum: expect that at the start, the translation will be still shared. Over time first or second app may have some unique own texts, so these texts will be separated, but rest will still be shared. Uff, hope what I wrote makes sense :).
Topic closed. Work in progress ...