Locus Map - forum

Development => Discussion/New features => Navigation & Guidance => Topic started by: 0709 on March 31, 2015, 11:26:13

Title: Navigation Generator
Post by: 0709 on March 31, 2015, 11:26:13
Why Navigation(guide) along track ?

Simple compact loud and clear guiding help for relatively (short) circuit designs.
Respecting minimal screen on time or so minimal battery drain.

Perfectly functional on MTB trails and (partly) going off road circuit builds. No shortcuts in circuit driving allowed !
Functional on temporary and unmapped paths also, or paths that even never will be mapped now or in future.
For this purpose some fine tuning/add/delete/edit of Coursepoints should be possible.
Perfect, strictly timed guiding even when using common trackpaths, multiple driving a path in same or opposite directions !

EDIT:
Automatic Guiding Navi Generations based on and by (re)routing maps in Locus = NON EXISTENT ! 
Routable map, and App as such, is not available in Locus.
See other treads routing subject. (Brouter and others).
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 01, 2015, 13:24:56
Hmm so question is:

Quote
Do you want such a simple direct tuning yes or no ?

And sorry, but I have to ask. What is "simple direct tuning"?

You may just delete waypoints from track generated by "navigation generator"?
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: chbla on April 02, 2015, 11:21:15
The editing discussion opens quite some possibilities in my opinion.

I remember a discussion with the author of openandromaps. For planning trips there is the very popular and quite good app Quo-Vadis GPS. There are not many alternatives, unfortunately it's expensive and the user interface is terrible. He told me that he still uses it sometimes but switched over to planning with Locus as well. He does this by running locus in a virtual android device on his computer (which is very easy to setup).

There are also someother options for trip planning, mostly online like komoot or outdooractive - however, since locus can integrate quite a lot of maps, and since openandromaps is afaik the only map that includes metadata like SAC and MTB scale and supports brouter etc, Locus could be a quite nice alternative for planning trips as well (at least to some extent).

Right now I use mostly brouter and bikeroutetoaster - the problem is that you can only generate course points/navigation info when auto-planning (calculating) the route. What I miss is a tool that let's you add coursepoints automatically to existing tracks, distinguished in angle (more than 45 degrees) or junctions.

An editing possibility of such coursepoints is very nice since often you want to use a track more than once, share it, etc and if you are riding on this track realize that some of the coursepoints/navigational infos are not accurate or redundant and can directly change them.
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 02, 2015, 12:38:28
Guys, slowly on me please.

First small step - deleting of waypoints from track. In latest public version, you were able to generated, thanks to "Navigation generator", navigation waypoints along track and then later, start a navigation. This is not anymore possible in new Beta version. Tap on Guidance or Navigate, automatically starts generator and then immediately guidance/navigation.

So my first question ... can you imagine, you wants to let Locus internal "navigation generator", generates a waypoints with navigation orders (which may be later modified)? If so, should be for you solution extending current "Copy" feature? I mean - tap on a track > display track details > in menu choose "Copy" and at bottom is currently only "Change track orientation". I should add here also button "Generate navigation waypoints".

Result of above "Copy" operation, should be a track, with generated waypoints, that should be possible to modify. Because I still think that edit/delete waypoints for temporary track isn't too logical, as all changes will be lost after you close Locus.

So please let's start with this first step, if is clear for you from my description.
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 02, 2015, 20:18:28
Hello,
exactly.

Basic version as you wrote - temporary track generated automatically for users that "don't care".

Extended possibilities - track stored in database.

I've just published new version 3.7.2.3 which will be available for download after around a two hours from Google Play.

Please try only display TCX track. Guiding should work correctly without influence of generator. As expected. To remove some points, try firstly "import" this track to Locus. Then delete should work. Some extra modifications aren't yet possible. For now. I firstly wants to make basic guidance/navigation working as expected without needs for some extra tuning. I believe that most people do not wants to hassle with some "tuning".
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Joachim Buhl on April 03, 2015, 09:55:50
Hi Menion

Thanks for going forward with editing feature for navigation instructions. I'm begging you since two years for that.

So you say, if I import a TCX file with instructions into Locus I can delete several instructions? I will try that.

Currently I do not understand what the "new" behavior for guiding and navigation (beta version) is good for. Whats the difference between the both? But it doesn't matter, because the "generator" will never gives you a good result.

There should be at least three ways to get a editable instruction set:
1. Generating a first draft of instructions with the generator and than modifiing the instruction (delete/add!) is a good idea of you.
2. Editing an imported TCX file. Deleting maybe allready implemented?
3. If you create a track with instructions within Locus by using MapQuest or Brouter, afterwards we want to edit the instructions too (delete/add!)

With this features you are head of the house in route planning.
RidewithGPS is expensive and no good maps, Bikeroutetoaster is dead, GPSIES only "generates" instructions, Vectorial, RouteConverter and Atlas with Openandromaps are bullshit, basecamp is horrible, komoot, outdoorractive are all also not good enough.

So pleeeeeeeeeease do it and we will plan our tracks with Bluestacks and Locus even on our Windows PCs.

Thanks

PS.: Copy a track with generating instructions works well, and deleting single ones also works. Deleting option of waypoint should be directly in the context menu (arrow right).
And now adding manually instructions and you are the best!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 03, 2015, 10:16:38
Nice post ...

so precise explanation:

1. track with routing instructions (imported from TCX, computed by MapQuest, etc.)

a) navigation - starts directly navigation thanks to existing navigation instructions
b) guidance - navigator won't be used here as well. Started guidance directly over existing navigation waypoints so Locus will notify on these waypoints (if enabled "Set notification of the next direction change"). Settings "notify on every trackpoint" has no influence here.

2. track without navigation instructions (clicked directly in app, imported GPX file, etc.)

a) navigation - thanks to navigation generator, generates navigation waypoints and then starts navigation as common voice navigation
b) guidance (disabled "notify on every trackpoint") - thanks to navigation generator, generates navigation waypoints and then starts guidance. This will notify on these waypoints (if enabled "Set notification of the next direction change"),
c) guidance (enabled "notify on every trackpoint") - generator won't be used. Notification on next direction change will notify every trackpoint!



Main difference between 1a, 1b - navigation is, well .. navigation. It allows to recompute, it allows to use TomTom voices (which for unknown reason is not possible in guidance ;) ), it display big arrow on screen. Hmm as I write it, in the end nothing serious. But difference in usability is big i think.



Current editing options.

It is important to divide tracks to imported and temporary. Imported are these, that are visible in any folder in Data > Tracks. Temporary are just loaded on map and all changes will be lost when you close Locus.

Temporary tracks has no edit options now.

Imported tracks has support for edit of shape and also for remove of existing waypoints. Adding new waypoints is not yet possible.



All clear? If not, write me and I'll improve text above
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Joachim Buhl on April 03, 2015, 10:36:40
Hello Menion

Thanks for explanation.

"As I write..."....nice. In my opinion the difference is small but I know now, that I'm not missing something ;-).

I get some error massage when copiing a track with generating instructions. See attachment.
The Copy with intructions is working nevertheless.

So the only thing we need now is adding and modifiing instructions, thats it.

Go on Menion.

Thanks
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 03, 2015, 10:49:27
ah problem with tts that I forget to fix, thanks!
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Joachim Buhl on April 03, 2015, 13:33:36
Hello Menion, hello All

Summer is coming, which means test time begins again - much work for you ;-).
I did a test drive a few minutes ago with a route generated with mapquest and using navigation in beta 3.7.1.3.

1. Even if the option of using the compass below 1m/s is activated, the map does not rotate according to compass when I stand at a crossing. I remember earlier versions do so. (In normal version it works). SORRY, Works. I have to deactivate snap to track!!
2. Is there a opportunity getting an option that the display leaves activated as long as I'm "out of track". After beiing on the track again, the display activation gets back to normal mode.
3. I'm still not satiesfied with instruction timing. The route was created in walking mode so the navigation mode is also walking. That means I get an instruction at 50m and one at 20m (around 15km/h speed) and non close before turn.
Is the instruction timing depending on navigation mode (walking, car...)? Is it possible to customize them?
Sometime the 20m is "so late" that it could also be the one right before turning.

4. Awkward behavior when some parts of the track are "used" twice. Explanation:
For mountainbiking there are sometimes areas in the forrest with a lot of trails in one area. That means coming up the hill for the first time we want to take the right trail downwards. Next time we come up the same way again, we want to go the left trail.
Could it be that Locus does sometimes not know if we are on the first round or in the second? Does Locus always navigates to the next trackpoint knowing which trackpoints we already drove in the past? Its difficult to explain.
On my testdrive sometimes (1 of 3 times) Locus takes the right turn on the first round where it should take the left turn. On the second round it should take then the right turn.

Thanks
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Sersus on April 03, 2015, 16:11:42
Seems I misunderstood you last time we talked about this. I have got a new mobile at the moment with more RAM and newly installed apps but the problem still exists. The matter is that when Locus is on for navigating on the the long tracks (over 100 km) it can suddenly stops seeing and following (being attracted) the nearest point whereas the corresponding option "Nearest point" attracts the position to the nearest random point which was passed several kms before. To make the navigation work in this case, I have to edit the track and delete all the previous points up to the current location for proper navigating.
Menion, have you found the possible explanation of this bug of the algorithm yet?
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Joachim Buhl on April 04, 2015, 09:00:34
Hello 0709

to Point 3:
Understood, voted.

to Point 4:
Misunderstood, I only described for which purpuse the functionallity is important.
My test track, where I detect the problem, was veeeeery easy, see picture.
(http://s29.postimg.org/dxtjh9mxv/Screenshot_2015_04_04_08_55_24.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/dxtjh9mxv/)

Is track navigator another app for navigation to test?

Thanks
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: chbla on April 07, 2015, 20:08:23
I second Track Navigator - it's pretty cool for Guidance, but only for that, no fancy stuff like Locus has.

However, maybe Menion could check it out and integrate some of the features, it works pretty good for this task.
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Joachim Buhl on April 09, 2015, 10:16:41
Hi

I tested TN with my  track, but I did not get any direction instruction. It tells me only the street name.
But its nice to hear that you can reproduce my observation in Locus.

Thanks


EDIT: TCX is the key. I will come back to you after testing
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Joachim Buhl on April 09, 2015, 10:36:37
Hi

I did the point by point jumping thing in Locus Beta and Normal Version and in both versions it is horrible.
Sometimes it jumps from point 9 to 21, sometimes from 6 to 19, sometimes from 9 to 10 and 6 to 7.
Menion, whats happening there?
That is a job stopper for Locus.

Bye
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 09, 2015, 12:37:20
:) have no idea what you are talking about, sorry. Give me some tcx/gpx file, give me step by step what you setup and what you did, so I may simulate and check/fix any problems.
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Joachim Buhl on April 09, 2015, 15:50:02
Hello Menion

Attached file.
Edit on Map.
Jump from point to point with arrows.
You will see that Locus will not follow the track according the order of the points.
The same happens if you drive it in real-time. Locus gets confused if a part of a track is overlapping twice.

Thanks
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 09, 2015, 16:23:37
hmm ... "confused". Isn't point get from start to finish? :)

Anyway, try to:
- settings > guidance > set next point - set here 100 metres or less. In this case rather 50
- settings > guidance > advanced settings > UNCHECK intelligent guidance

and give Locus second try ...
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Joachim Buhl on April 09, 2015, 16:37:45
Hi

I set it to 50m.
Doesn't work. It chooses wrong points as next. Not according the order.
And no. It's not about the finish, it's about the way.

Bye
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 09, 2015, 16:40:32
did you UNCHECK intelligence guidance? It's what do this "autoselection" of trackpoints
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 09, 2015, 18:04:38
and same question as to Joachim, do you have shorted "set next point" distance and mainly UNCHECKED "Intelligence guidance"? Because this "intelligence guidance" do what happen to you ... Locus switch to nearest points and do not follow exactly defined route. if this feature is disabled, Locus do not! switch to next trackpoint till you are closed then defined distance.
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 09, 2015, 20:27:58
Thanks for tests, then it works exactly as it should!

"Intelligence guidance" - just renamed "Auto-selected best point", no other change in this feature.

"Navigation" is not affected by this settings. Navigation use own system which is based on nearest points and also on direction (to prevent auto selecting of points for example on highway when you have track in both directions). In this case, in then middle of "8" track, two tracks lay one on another and both has same direction, so Locus choose the second track which is closer to finish.
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 09, 2015, 21:13:40
100% strict trackpoint to trackpoint navigation is not possible, correct!

Main purpose of Locus "Navigation" is to get from start to finish, that is all. And if there is any complicated situation like in "8" track, then Locus choose shorter path.

Issue on your video is different. Problem on a video should be anyway solved since today morning :), so you will see in next version.
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Christian on April 09, 2015, 23:12:27
"Intelligence guidance" - just renamed "Auto-selected best point", no other change in this feature.
LOL
hope there are intelligent users. Not like me.
;)
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 09, 2015, 23:21:45
You know, we have now in team expert on English (Michal) and he fix some of my typos, grammatical issues and also not-so-logical namings. I have also sometimes problems to remember after all these years, how is old good feature named ... like this :).
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 10, 2015, 15:51:41
hehe nice :).

Hmm .. Navigation in Locus works in this way for let's say three years. And because of complains, I think it's working as expected ;). At least I personally found this very useful and can't remember situation when this caused any troubles to me.

Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Joachim Buhl on April 10, 2015, 18:58:22
Hello Guys

I recognized this problem two years ago. But I did not follow this issue because on our tour I remembered where to go to, so Locus first picks the wrong way but after insisting on another direction, Locus follows.
But I think this is a strategy decision for Locus.
Do you want to be the 1456th routing tool for navigation from A to B or do you want to put a little more affort in offroad navigation for hikers, bikers and so on. With all the maps and all the other features you are unique.
Is it possible to differentiate the behavior depending on routing mode (bike, car, pedestrian)?
Or could we get an option for "round courses"?
Is it a big problem to follow a route point by point?

Thanks



Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 10, 2015, 21:00:47
Hmm 1456th tool for navigation sounds good for me for now.

What I wanted and expected is to be in top ten for guidance, so for what I expect from hike/bike navigation.

So my question is, whether you really wants to use on your bike "navigation" (with big blue arrow in top left corner, TomTom voices, some automatic recompute etc.) or guidance optimized for cycle trips with ability to disable some artificial intelligence etc.? Till now, I though, that what you all want is this guidance system and now we talk about old good Locus navigation ... I'm little bit confused to be true.
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Joachim Buhl on April 10, 2015, 22:26:52
Hello Menion

Maybe one problem in communication is the language barrier. We are not native speakers and I think english is a little bit unprecise sometimes.
And to be honest, I never understood the guidance-navigation difference.
In the end its very easy:
See attached file. Typical for a mountainbike tour with a lot of trails.
(http://s4.postimg.org/71wywr8y1/Screenshot_2015_04_10_22_22_58.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/71wywr8y1/)
We want to plan a route on the small brown/green paths (Openandromaps/MTB Theme) and just getting direction orders when we have to change the path and not when we drive switch backs.
Than we want to be guided along the track, in the planned order. Before the crossings we need beeps or voice and the display switches on. On crossings we need orientation with moving map according compass to find the right way.
And the display should be on for 15sec after the crossing to see if we are right and switches off afterwards.
Thats it.

Thanks

PS.: For some more details do not hesitate to ask ;-)

Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 11, 2015, 08:25:46
Agree that language may be a problem sometimes, fortunately not so bad :).

Anyway, perfectly understand, thanks.

What I can imagine is making bigger difference between navigation and guidance. Before Locus was able to generate some pseudo-waypoints along track with instructions, navigation was focused only on a voice TomTom like navigation and guidance only for very simple notifications along track. So first usable mainly for car, second for bike/hike. And this is what I would like to have again here.

So can imagine, that navigation will be really focused on online/offline compute of navigation track between start and target, optimized for common car-like navigation. So I think same as works now.

We can focus on guidance, which I can imagine we tune to best hike/bike guidance possible, but still leaving Navigation as is. You personally wrote, you never understood difference. Another point that say to me, that we may leave navigation as is and focus really only on a guidance. What you guys think?
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 11, 2015, 08:39:35
Fine, if Joachim will also agree that we may stay for now with Guidance system, let's focus on a next issue.

Currently, instructions are used, screen is correctly turned on/off based on settings. In latest test version is also possible to delete existing instructions and even add a new (little bit slow method for now, but it works)

So next problem - too long instructions or anything from my above list is not yet perfect and needs improvements before we move to another step?
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 11, 2015, 09:03:52
No problem. Yes, names should be used from TTS files, so it is possible to modify this TTS file exactly for this purpose - short tts messages as instructions. Discuss, use, test and let me know - please, observations for me as a short step by step information :), thanks
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Joachim Buhl on April 11, 2015, 11:22:53
Hello You

Thanks for all your effort and the open minded discussion.
@Menion: I agree, that making the difference between navigation and guidance bigger, makes sense.
I think the length of the instuctions is cosmetic improvement. From beginning of display activation before a turn, to display off, there will be around a minute and minimum 2 spoken instructions. It does not really matter how long they are.
@Willy: The instructions of my track were generated by the internal generator and than I deleted around 80% because they were not needed.

@All: I tried to summarize the differences between navigation and guidance.
See this sheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15oIChfLHuqS09iFm7ngi2A_7eaCWajKKe1RPXluAGc8/edit?usp=sharing
Please do not hesitate to add/change/mark important things to discuss. Its just written in 10min and should be a start.
Where are the instructions coming from for guidance along a track at the moment?

I think the difference between navigation and guidance is another option set and the big difference in selecting the next waypoint.
I personally would like to have the arrows also in guidance mode.

Thanks Menion for implementing manuall addition of turn instructions. When will we get the Beta?

Thanks

PS.: Maybe we have to think about optimizing the display on feature. I recognized with turns being right after another in short distance, that locus switches off the screen because the timeout is over for the first instruction despite a next instruction is following. This leads to a black screen despite a turn. I think its a overlapping problem of following turn.
Maybe another concept would be up for consideration. Switching on display X seconds before turn and switching it off X seconds after the turn unless you are within the X seconds of the next turn. With guidance behavior of following each point by point it should be possible. So display on is not time dependent but track position depending.


Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: gynta on April 11, 2015, 12:56:00
So next problem - too long instructions or anything from my above list is not yet perfect and needs improvements before we move to another step?
names should be used from TTS files
means
expand *.tts file (new entries for guidance)?
or
split/separately *.tts files (navigation, guidance, training,..)?
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Joachim Buhl on April 11, 2015, 13:22:48
Hello

Don't spend time on shorter instructions right now. Everybody who wants shorter instructions can edit the tts file right now.
Priority should be:
1. Deleting and adding instructions manually -> Done in next beta
2. Point to point guidance in right order
3. Sharpening option set for guidance and navigation -> Discussion about my sheet.
4. Optimization of display behavior (later)

Thanks

PS.: I really would like to help in programming or something like that, but I'm not able to do so. So I can just test and give feedback, sorry.
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: gynta on April 11, 2015, 13:41:18
Everybody who wants shorter instructions can edit the tts file right now.
Most users want to use(!) Locus and they don't want to play with Locus!
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: gynta on April 11, 2015, 13:58:02
@ Gynta pse wait please !

It wasn't my idea to talk about tts strings

Menion wrote:
So next problem - too long instructions or anything from my above list is not yet perfect and needs improvements
before we move to another step?
names should be used from TTS files
so...
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Joachim Buhl on April 11, 2015, 14:15:33
Hello

@gynta:
You are right and I totally agree. I do not want to discuss about two words more or less. Not now ;-).

@0709:
I'm talking about navigation mode with my small eight shaped course I posted before.
And yes, it could be a problem of changing of speed together with the distance to the next turn like in your example.
I have to ask precisely now:
"Majority of users did prefer the guiding module and screen...", what does that mean?
What is the difference between the display on algorithm between navigation and guidance mode?
Screen difference?
Navigation screen: no arrowed line to next waypoint/turn instruction point, turn instruction arrow, different track color.
Guidance screen: arrowed line, no arrow, different track color.
"did not choose for already more intelligent autoadapting Navigation". ????? What is different in navigation mode?
I saw the problem even in navigation mode.

"So my idea, start count down for screen off if wpt is reached, so screen is allways on in area of wpt "

Yes, That would make sense.

Thanks
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: gynta on April 11, 2015, 14:27:42
Quote
I do not want to discuss about two words more or less. Not now.
good point :)

but only some users know... that there is a possibility to edit a personal en.tts or de.tts OK ?
right, some users. very few users. maybe later (manual) but not yet...

I only want to go step by step - as Menion wrote...
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Joachim Buhl on April 11, 2015, 15:10:26
Hello

I have to admit that I maybe do not know enough about the guidance mode because I didn't use it for "years".
I did a testdrive on my eight shaped route.

1. I understand the difference in display on behavior between navigation and guidance.
Navigation: algorithm that takes speed into account and generates variable distances for the turn instructions.
Guidance:  Fixed value for "Set next trackpoint" activates display and notifies with exactly one instruction at the set distance.
Either way: A fixed timeout is not nice and should be changed to switching off X sec after reaching turn.

2. I drove it two times with no confusion by selecting the next points in the right order. Is the guidance mode following the points strictly in the right order (setup: deactivated "intelligent guidance")?

3. Now I know again why I'm not using the guidance mode ;-):
a) I need the small arrow pictures for next turn. If the display goes on and I have a short look to the screen I want to know where to go to. Best visible is the arrow from navigation mode.
b) The map is always moving according compass orientation. That is annoying. A bike is always moving at the handlebars. The map is moving all the time, so nobody can see the track.
Better is the setting of navigation mode. No snap to track, but about a certain speed orientation to GPS direction and only under the limit orientation according compass.
c) Arrowed line to the next next point: Its just confusing.

I added all this behavior to my sheet.

And here we go again. These were the reasons why I changed to navigation mode.

So we can add arrows, instruction algorithm and map orientation plus strictly points in the right order to the guidance mode or
we can add a option "strictly points in the right order" to the navigation mode.

The display on/off thing should be changed for both modes.

What would be better?

Thanks



Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 11, 2015, 15:51:16
So my idea, start count down for screen off if wpt is reached, so screen is allways on in area of wpt :)

Little bit complicated in both modes. Anyway consider it as done
- guidance: timer will be reset (means screen turned on and count down reset to 0) when distance from current target (point when blue arrow point) to last command point will be less or equal to "set next point" distance. Which should be exactly the moment you pass this last command point
- navigation: timer will be reset when time to command point will be less or equal 5 seconds.

Testing will be needed, but I think this should work.
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Joachim Buhl on April 11, 2015, 15:55:23
Hi, sorry one last.

Summary for Menion in my personal order of priority:
1. Info: Current guidance behavior (map orientation, no arrows, fixed instruction at a certain distance) is maybe good for walking or hiking but not for biking. Biking is somehow more similar to car driving.
2. action: Navigation mode with its behavior (option snap to track, map orient. compass below X m/s, turn arrows, instruction distance algorithm) like it is, is very nice but for biking we need the strictly point by point order option.
3. action: Manual adding and deleting of turn instructions -> Done with next Beta, yeah.
3. action: Display on/off should be optimized for all modes. Concept: Display off only after reaching the turn + X seconds -> considered as done.
4. maybe later: different sets of turn instructions short/long.....

Long term wishes maybe not only for Locus:
1. Map data based turn instructions generated along a GPX file. See discussion with Arndt http://forum.locusmap.eu/index.php?topic=4064.new#new

Thanks
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: zossebart on April 14, 2015, 13:44:54
Hi,

I am too using Locus for bike (MTB) navigation. I have to say I prefer Navigation for this. As Joachim said, the directional arrows are very helpful and the next turn can be quickly determined by a brief look at the screen.
Also, the line to the next point in Guiding is rather confusing on the bike (you normally have not enough time to look at it for a longer time).
I agree that biking is more like car driving and therefore Navigation seems to be more appropriate for this than Guiding.

For me, however, there are some points which could be improved in Navigation to make Locus the perfect bike/MTB navigation solution:

- an option to enable/disable strict ordering of navigation points

- the possibility to reduce the amount of voice orders before a turn (see http://help.locusmap.eu/topic/navigation-limit-the-total-orders-by-user-editable-navi-order-distances). Because on the MTB, in the woods, I neither use earplugs nor want the phone to shout out frequent navigation orders through the speaker. The experimental voice "Samuel" is a solution for this (indicating a left turn by one beep and a right turn by two beeps). However, because there are more than one navigation orders "spoken" out by Locus before a turn, it gets very confusing. For example the navi orders "turn left, then right -> turn right in x meters -> turn right" all between one instruction and the next leads to "beep, beep-beep, beep-beep, beep-beep). So it would be very nice to be able to reduce the "spoken" out navi orders to only one order before a turn (then the above example would lead to a very precise "beep, beep-beep", which I think is sufficient on the MTB)

- Exact turn restrictions only at way crossings (as mentioned by Joachim in the last post). Don't get me wrong, the navigation order generator does a nice job of inserting instructions only on the basis of a raw track, but is of course not able to distinguish between a turn at a crossing and a turn in a curve. So this problem is not solvable by Locus, but is rather a task for the router (e.g. BRouter). In fact, when using an other router (e.g. Mapquest) this is already possible.

I know, of course, that biking is not the only use for Locus, so this are all "nice to haves". Although for me, they would be VERY nice to haves  ;)

regards,
zossebart
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Joachim Buhl on April 15, 2015, 21:05:50
Hello

@0709: Thanks for your effort. I tested BaseCamp/Mapsource a while ago and I was not convinced but I will give it a second try. Is it possible to get hillshading with the openfietsmaps in BC/MAPSource?

@Menion: I installed the current beta a few minutes ago. Thanks for your quick response.
- Optimized screen on, will test it on the weekend.
- Point by Point in navigation mode
- Adding of navigation waypoints

nearly perfect......When I convert a point to a navigaton waypoint I sometimes do not get a navigation waypoint. No blue point at this moment. Sometimes after closing of the program and restart a blue ball appears, on sometimes not.

Thanks, great work
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 15, 2015, 21:15:40
Perfect, thanks. I wanted to release a new version during Saturday, so maybe I'll wait a day or two :)
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Joachim Buhl on April 15, 2015, 21:30:09
Hello Menion

Yes wait ;-), the behavior when adding navigation waypoints is strange.
I made a route within Locus with Mapquest Routing.
Afterwards I do "edit on map". Jumping to a point with the arrow keys and use "convert to navigation waypoint" -> e.g. choosing right -> Click save. Afterward I had the following behaviors:
1. A blue point appears instantly -> perfect
2. No blue point appears -> after restart the blue point appears
3. No blue point appears -> after restart no blue point appears -> no navigation waypoint was created

Does it make a difference if I leave the "edit on map" mode by clicking the X or clicking somewhere else in the map?

Thanks

EDIT: I checked the X vs. map clicking. Does not make a difference. Sometimes I get the blue dot after restart despite clicking the X, somtimes I do not get the dot after restart after clicking X. But if I get a dot than most of the time only after restart.
EDIT II: And somtimes I get a dot right away and on the next track even not after the restart, strange....
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: balloni55 on April 15, 2015, 21:43:58
Joachim, confirm all your experience :-[
additional i get no announcement while guiding (on sofa) over a created navigation point :(
Wolfgang
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 15, 2015, 21:54:49
hmm to have same conditions ... are you both working (editing) with track stored in Locus database (so visible in Data > Tracks tab)?
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Joachim Buhl on April 15, 2015, 22:18:12
Hello

Yes.

About the point to point thing.
What is the condition for Locus to set a point as "reached" to go on to the next? Do I have to "hit" the point in a certain area e.g. 10m around or something like that?
What happens if the track is not designed exactly on the path or the GPS signal is not perfect and Locus thinks I'm of 20m.
Is Locus waiting to "hit" the next point before going on to the next?

Thanks

Bye

Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: balloni55 on April 16, 2015, 09:17:42
Yes, i also use an copied track

EDIT: if i create a copy with commands of a track in which i have added a navigation  point, this point is not copied

Question, where can i set folder where track copy is stored?
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 16, 2015, 14:43:01
uff finally seems to be fixed. I was working on it since morning and I'm really surprised you had just this small issue :). So we will see in next version if this feature will be working as expected ;)

Copy - when you tap on "Copy" from track tools menu, you should get small dialog where is also visible "Folder" where to copy this track. You do not see it there?
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: balloni55 on April 16, 2015, 15:48:46
Quote
Copy - when you tap on "Copy" from track tools menu, you should get small dialog where is also visible "Folder" where to copy this track. You do not see it there?
sure :)
e.g. i create a copy of a track from folder  "Aufgezeichnete" (top of the list), the offered folder to store  is always "Jogging" subfolder from last folder in list :-[
I expect as default "same folder as original" or "last used" and not always in my case  "Jogging" (last folder from list)

(http://s28.postimg.org/5rdwl1c7d/Folder.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/5rdwl1c7d/)
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Joachim Buhl on April 19, 2015, 19:41:54
Hello Willy

Yes, missed your reedit.
http://forum.locusmap.eu/index.php?topic=4467.msg36213#msg36213

Yes, correct.
But the timer should be triggered by position.
1. Screen on before turn should be triggered like it is today. Speed/time
2. Screen off trigger for 5 sec timer only when you are 10m behind the turn on the track.
3. If you don't reach the trigger point after the turn, screen off after X min (e.g. 1min).
4. And if this timeout was active (turn screen on state, not reached after turn point and X min timeout) than the screen should go on suddenly when the compass moves +-30°.

So after a "crossing break" I can active the screen by moving handlebar and then it goes off with after turn trigger again.

This would be perfect.

Bye



Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: balloni55 on April 20, 2015, 12:49:25
behavior i described in # 71 with last BETA is now identical in FREE V3.8
with PRO V3.8 in my case it is always set "bike_rec" as folder.
- why is it different ?
- where can user affect storage folder ?
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: jusc on April 21, 2015, 17:06:18
Does a tcx file not work with Track Navigator?
Locus seems to find the target without any detours :- ;D
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: jusc on April 21, 2015, 19:20:25
Sorry, I converted the tcx file and sure Track Navigator works correctl, or better as wanted.
Locus instead, seems to find the shortest way to target.
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: jusc on April 21, 2015, 19:39:30
Yes, TN works correctly. TN follows the GPX file.
Locus instead uses the shortest was.
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 21, 2015, 21:14:54
Wait, with "Strict navigation", there is no shortcut. Locus only incorrectly move last "turn right" command to second place, because this command lays on same trackpoint. After load of TCX, Locus needs to map "coursepoints" to "trackpoints", and latest 3.8.0 do this just by coordinates. I have today fixed this problem, and match is now done by coordinates + times. Anyway except this "turn right" command, all seems to work for me as expected.
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 28, 2015, 08:35:58
Interesting that this do not happen before (changing first navigation waypoint to "straight" as this was in Locus since ... uff, a long time. Thanks fixed!
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: chbla on April 28, 2015, 10:19:10
Also adding my suggestions to the hopefully right thread here:

1. Distance in advance to orders (mandatory change in my eyes)
2. Specify turn radius for orders
3. Distinguish between turns and junctions
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: balloni55 on April 28, 2015, 13:56:12
few questions/remarks after fieldtest "Guidiance"

(http://s22.postimg.org/mzrtzj5vx/Turn.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/mzrtzj5vx/)

1. with V3.8.2 command built for this hair needle curve is "U-TURN" with Beta and V 3.8.0 it was built "sharp right"
2. if i change icon to sharp right label is furthermore "U-TURN" :-[
3. if i convert a point to Navipoint and set icon, label keeps allways "Point.."
4. although in my setting "set next Trackpoint" is 50 meter, sometimes announcement is 200 meter in advance, mostly on final point and self created navpoints.
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on April 28, 2015, 15:54:37
Hello balloni:
1. it looks you do not use same "amount of generated commands"
2. correct, once generated name has to be changed manually
3. hmm, hard to say if this is an issue. What if you change name before you change icon?
4. 50 metres says, how close to points you needs to get, till Locus switch to another trackpoint. And Locus should really notify only in cases, it switch to another trackpoint, weird. Any track where I may simulate it? Thanks
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: balloni55 on April 28, 2015, 19:55:58
Hi menion
Quote
1. it looks you do not use same "amount of generated commands"
which setting?
my settings/Guidance/Tracks, Advanced settings Number of alerts are always "medium" in my settings
do you mean this?

number 2+3, my idea/whish: if i change or add a icon, belonging label text is automatical set by locus ;)

my answer to 4 later after additional tests
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: balloni55 on April 28, 2015, 21:41:38
example to number 4
i use track without navipoints, start guidance.
In hair needle curve i schould "turn arround" and 200 meter announcement for "you reach destination"
see screencast with voice announcement and attached gpx
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6pxzwob9rb0rjso/Guidancetest.mp4?dl=0
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Andrew Heard on May 04, 2015, 00:14:19
I agree totally with Willy. This screen on/off timing rules are getting very confusing. I want the ON time to be short to save on phone battery. On a bicycle ride a few days ago with V3.8.2, even with the minimum setting "Screen off if idle" = 15s, I find the display is on too long. Every time I manually turn the screen off Locus overrides my action and turns it back on again - really annoying. I also find the screen is turned on twice before each navi waypoint even with "Notify also second comment" = unticked, and "Number of commands" = Low. Can Locus turn the screen on just once per point instead of continually forcing the screen back on? If I pause at a navi point this is a real issue for me. My only solution was to cancel navigation because the display would never go off. But cancelling navigation also hides the track so then to "unpause" I have to go through whole process of starting again. I do really like the screen auto on feature but it is difficult to satisfy so many competing user requirements.

Just one other observation (and sad experience) - if using BRouter for track calculation, and Auto-recalculation = on, if I "miss the track" or in my case take an alternative, BRouter adds so many new navi points that the display is on most of the time. In this scenario a way to pause the navigation/ guiding rather than having to cancel would be handy. Then when "back on track" the navigation/ guiding can be resumed/ unpaused.
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: Joachim Buhl on May 04, 2015, 07:35:06
Hello Guys

In principle I also agree with you. The display on time should be as short as possible, especially for biking.
But:
I did a testdrive with my car in car navigation mode a few month ago for which Locus should also be (depending on strategy of Locus). It was extremly annoying, that sometimes between the first instruction an the next one the display gets of and than you have to stop at the traffic light and it switches of, despite you did not perform the turn. No other navigation app does that, because it makes no sense.
So in my opinion the more complex algorithm makes sense..
But:
For Biking we need another handling of the instruction timing.
For car 200m, 30m and short before makes sense but the display on time is long.
For Bike we need one e.g. 30m before and thats it. So the display on time would be much shorter again.

I use Locus bike navigation also for day mountainbike tours. 9 to 18 a clock for example. Normally on lunch brake I have time to recharge the smartphone with extra battery.
Right now we have to choose between optimized battery usage and having a black screen when I need it on.
Until we have the optimized instructions for biking I do not want black screen when I need the screen on.

Bye

PS.: At the moment its all a luxury problem. As long as we cannot navigate with added instructions right, we do not have to talk about 30sek of more screen on.

Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: menion on May 04, 2015, 08:12:23
even the cheapest commercial gps outperforms Locus

really?  :'( ... few thousands km with Locus as main navi in car, and I'm still alive  ;)
Title: Re: Navigation Generator
Post by: KaHeMu on May 04, 2015, 17:45:37
Offline navigation ? Europe wide ?  Datatraffic ?  Roaming ?
Locus = in the first place hikers, bikers, cachers, support these. Forget cars, keep those monsters out of our woods.

+1