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Development => Discussion/New features => Navigation & Guidance => Topic started by: menion on September 03, 2013, 12:47:55

Title: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: menion on September 03, 2013, 12:47:55
I would like to introduce new testing feature - navigation on all tracks, not just the once, created with online service, directly in Locus

How does it work:
1. you need latest test version of Locus 2.14.1.11+ (http://forum.locusmap.eu/index.php?board=25.0)
2. simply display track on map, tap on it and under Guide section, will be Navigation test button. Use it
3. locus will generate navigation orders along the track and allow to enable classic voice navigation

Keep in mind: Locus generate Navigation orders offline, by testing changes in angles (course of track) . It's almost same as current system for Guiding with enabled TTS, but with more precise results and much easier to work with

Big thanks:
big thanks belong to Thomas (http://forum.locusmap.eu/index.php?action=profile;u=1293) and Willy (http://forum.locusmap.eu/index.php?action=profile;u=3148). They created and tested during a holidays, algorithm for computations of navigation orders. So it was quite easy for me, to just use it, little bit improve and optimize and provide you as a working solution of this, quite a lot, wanted feature

Why this topic
Navigation will not be perfect. It will not also be included in new release version, just in these testings. I would like to discuss about - how it works, what to improve, etc.

Enjoy it
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: menion on September 03, 2013, 17:55:54
hmm amazing testing, thank you! Seems that your algorithm works quite well ;)

Navigation in opposite direction is not yet available, but you're correct it should be possible and usable, so I'll for sure add there such possibility. Notification when out of track, works in same way as with online navigation (because this just create from track same result as from online navigation).

I'm also looking for some better weather to do some field tests.

And "paypal" button .. ah, forget it. I'm very glad for your work on this and also for tests etc etc.  ;)
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on September 03, 2013, 19:17:28
Hi Menion,
in general I fully agree with Willy (would be strange if we wouldn't as we made the work together) and want to thank you.
However there are few very technical things which have big impact on the quality of the turn instructions in compliated situations which I sent to locus at asamm.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: menion on September 03, 2013, 19:30:43
email received, thanks. I'll be next days work on new version (maybe tomorrow will be release), but probably after weekend, I'll improve this ...
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on September 03, 2013, 19:35:22
email received, thanks. I'll be next days work on new version (maybe tomorrow will be release), but probably after weekend, I'll improve this ...
Thanks a lot. My experience for now is restricted to some sofa testing (you remember I asked for that being available in all versions of Locus and it helps with such testing).
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Joachim Buhl on September 03, 2013, 21:07:04
Hello Guys

I made a 22km bike track just to test guiding navigation and drove it this evening. I had to use "TEXT:high" setup because otherwise some notifications even on 90° crossings are missed.
Like I understand the posting of Menion it is quite the same as guiding with TTS but with a different algorithm.
I think, that the new algorithm seemed to be a little bit more precise, so I would like to use it. But I want to use it also without voice notification but with a beep as notification.
I think in the end guiding and navigation will melt together, but that means, that navigation needs the same notification opportunities like the old guiding.
A next step would be to have the opportunity to add navigation notifications manually. This is sometimes needed because we know that to go straight from a huge way to a small path is a problem for navigation. See here https://getsatisfaction.com/locus/topics/text_to_speech_reading_waypoints (https://getsatisfaction.com/locus/topics/text_to_speech_reading_waypoints)

Also display on/off on notification works fine, but I would like to see automatic display off also. See https://getsatisfaction.com/locus/topics/automatic_display_off_after_reaching_next_trackpoint_xm (https://getsatisfaction.com/locus/topics/automatic_display_off_after_reaching_next_trackpoint_xm)

Its nice to see, that Locus is getting better and better each week.

Thanks
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Joachim Buhl on September 03, 2013, 21:45:23
Hi Willy

Yes, its difficult to decide between tts sound and beep.
In the time before Locus had the feature of turning on the display automatically, voice is better, because you get the information where to go, and if its not clear where to go, you can switch on the display to see where to go. In reality this ends with switching the display on with each notification because most crossings in the forest are complicated or you are to fast to hear what the lady wants to tell you.
After introducing automatic display on, you only need a beep to know something happens and than you can look on the map to get all information. I think seeing the way to go on the map will always be the best solution for offroad navigation. This is the big difference to car/street navigation where you can go after the voice commands, but even there the map helps alot.
So in the end I would like to have all opportunites.

Thanks

Bye
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: jusc on September 04, 2013, 09:01:09
At first I have to say thank you to Willy, tommi and menion for this great feature.
In the past tommi asked me to read the concept of this guiding/navigation feature, but I ´didnt understand it.  :-[
Now in reality it looks quite easy and I´m impressed.  ;D. Ok the first test yesterday evening was while sitting on the sofa., but hhis afternoon, I´ll test it on my way home.
So for not missunderstanding it: In the moment it´s only possible with voice and not with beeps, correct?
And I would like to get display on, only turn directions. Can anybody make a hint how to cofigure the settings for this?

Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Henk van der Spek on September 04, 2013, 11:54:23
Did a (too) small test this morning. I missed a moving cursor. Only after switching back to the defaut nav cursor (the ugly green car) I had again a moving cursor. My own navigation arrow (the standard blue arrow) (installed long time ago) did not show up. (I have them in icons/navigation/mynavarrows.zip )
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: jusc on September 04, 2013, 12:35:22
Hi Henk,
did you rename your cursor to "ic_navig_car.png"?
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Henk van der Spek on September 04, 2013, 13:19:55
Yes Jusc, I did use the proper names. But forget my observation. My own nav arrows are there but they are super small. So I did not see them in sunlight.
They are 35x36 pixels in real life. Maybe I should go to 72x72 pixels and more contrast.

Somehow I think they used to be bigger in the past. Setting icon size through Locus does not influence it.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: .yo. on September 04, 2013, 18:41:01
Just one word : Great. :)

I was a little disappointed for my first try : my waypoints were too close so it jumps to more than one waypoint at a time.
But having soon a real try on my next 4x4 trail.

By the way, could you tell me what test locus make to jump the following WPT ?
I think to a distance threshold : under 50m you point the next WPT.
They are other possibilities. But it depends really of the track :
- when dist to wpt rise (you pass it)
- when bearing to wpt becomes behind (90° to 270°)
- a mix of the 2 before.

Selecting the nearest wpt is a good thing
Other ideas : could it be possible
- to select the 1st wpt to reach when starting nav (sometimes, we make "bivouac" in the middle of a track)
- to have a dashboard with as an example : distance, cap and name of the WPT to reach and 2 buttons : force next / previous wpt in the track. It's important for us to have main information at a glance to keep mainly the look on the 40 meters behind the car  :P I've made a lot of assistance during 4x4 raids and the possibility to select rapidly previous wpt could be very interesting.

Thanks a lot menion.

     .YO.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: balloni55 on September 04, 2013, 20:09:36
Quote
Can anybody make a hint how to cofigure the settings for this?
I do some test on sofa with "Navigation Test".
I expected that a voice told me the way to go, the direction arrows disapeare after passing, but i hear no command voice?
And if i tap a second time on the track there is only "navigation" without test?
On the other side with "guiding" i hear the voice.
Do i something wrong or do i misunderstand these feature?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fdwlg7f0zynybyo/video_0.mp4 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/fdwlg7f0zynybyo/video_0.mp4)
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on September 04, 2013, 21:07:33
Quote
Can anybody make a hint how to cofigure the settings for this?
I do some test on sofa with "Navigation Test".
I expected that a voice told me the way to go, the direction arrows disapeare after passing, but i hear no command voice?
And if i tap a second time on the track there is only "navigation" without test?
On the other side with "guiding" i hear the voice.
Do i something wrong or do i misunderstand these feature?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fdwlg7f0zynybyo/video_0.mp4 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/fdwlg7f0zynybyo/video_0.mp4)
Do you also use normal Locus car navigation?
It works in exactly the same way once the waypoints are calculated ( this is why it's called navigation test). When you tap it the second time the waypoints are already there -> no "test".
Sorry, no idea why it doesn't for you.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: balloni55 on September 05, 2013, 13:12:16
Thanks tommi and willy for your answer.
this afternoon i will try it outside with the bike.
Quote
Do not forget to switch on in the guiding notifications, notify when too far away from track
i have it marked
Quote
Choose voice: Text to Speech ?
is choosen
Quote
After applying the navigationtest do you hear 'Lets Go ?
no i have never heared it :-[
Quote
Well I did not hear that sound in your movi
there is only voice in the 3rd section, didyou hear that?

Thanks for your help
wolfgang


Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: balloni55 on September 07, 2013, 14:22:19
Hi willy,
sorry for late response. After i downloaded the "de.tts" and stored it in  Locus/data/tts, i hear outdoor under real conditions the voice with direction instruction :D Thanks for your help.
For me the instructions when i am away from the right track are not always clear and understandable.
For example, i reache a crossroad where i have to go left to follow the track. I go right (the car keep standing at the crossroad?) after 100 Meters i hear  "100 M von 6 Stunden" and see the navigation arrow on my possition.
The information "X Stunden" relats to my last moving direction and this is for me not allways clear where i have to go.
My hobby is aviation , an there direction infos always discribed in degrees. east=90°, south=180°, west=270°, North= 0°/360°
A clear and understandable instruction for my example above wil be "100 Meter nach 90 Grad"
Please do not missunderstand me, you, tommi and menion did a great work, perhaps i can do a little assist for a better solution.

Another thing i have noticed, (i nowhere read about that), if my selectet track is near an "official car-road", and my position is clother to these car-road  as to my selected track, locus himselfe creates an alternative track named "tesselate" and these created track doesnt end at my trackend. Where can i disable these funktion?

Nice weekend wolfgang
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on September 07, 2013, 18:40:18
Hi willy,
sorry for late response. After i downloaded the "de.tts" and stored it in  Locus/data/tts, i hear outdoor under real conditions the voice with direction instruction :D Thanks for your help.
So it was just a problem with the missing tts file? Thougt in absence the current official solution with fixed translation would kick in :o

For me the instructions when i am away from the right track are not always clear and understandable.
For example, i reache a crossroad where i have to go left to follow the track. I go right (the car keep standing at the crossroad?) after 100 Meters i hear  "100 M von 6 Stunden" and see the navigation arrow on my possition.
The information "X Stunden" relats to my last moving direction and this is for me not allways clear where i have to go.
My hobby is aviation , an there direction infos always discribed in degrees. east=90°, south=180°, west=270°, North= 0°/360°
A clear and understandable instruction for my example above wil be "100 Meter nach 90 Grad"
Please do not missunderstand me, you, tommi and menion did a great work, perhaps i can do a little assist for a better solution.
Wolfgang, I fully understand that people with e.g. aviation background prefer this solution. But if you have no sunlight or even night it's hard to judge the cardinal direction if you don't want to avoid picking the phone out of the bag (which is one of the most important point for this audio navigation!). Willy and I discussed exactly this as well and we came to the conclusion that the already existing solution (this off-track guiding is part of our proposal to Menion but it's nothing new) is ok. What is bad is the translation which is already an old discussion, see *your* response here: http://forum.locusmap.eu/index.php?topic=301.msg22033#msg22033.
Menion told me that he wants to make the waypoint generation good and later concentrate on TTS improvements.

Another thing i have noticed, (i nowhere read about that), if my selectet track is near an "official car-road", and my position is clother to these car-road  as to my selected track, locus himselfe creates an alternative track named "tesselate" and these created track doesnt end at my trackend. Where can i disable these funktion?
??? ??? ??? What is this? I never heard about that. We also should be aware Locus' only information for the waypoint generation is the original track.
Could you provide us such an example? (if for privacy reasons via PM/dropbox)

@Willy: Sorry, I could not hold on me any longer, already waited some hours before I responded  :D
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: balloni55 on September 07, 2013, 19:47:35
Quote
So it was just a problem with the missing tts file?
there was only an english .tts  file ,  my language is german.
Quote
if you don't want to avoid picking the phone out of the bag
ok, i understand.
Perhaps it is possible to create two different  selectable announcements?
Quote
Could you provide us such an example?
in these picture you see the example, my track on farmingroutes is parallel the Street and in this example the end of both tracks are the same position, because it is an official steet.
Both tracks i send you and willy per PM 8)


(http://s22.postimg.org/oh77cqi7x/image.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/oh77cqi7x/)
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on September 07, 2013, 20:51:57
Another thing i have noticed, (i nowhere read about that), if my selectet track is near an "official car-road", and my position is clother to these car-road  as to my selected track, locus himselfe creates an alternative track named "tesselate" and these created track doesnt end at my trackend. Where can i disable these funktion?
@Menion (or if anybody else should know):
Can you explain by which function of Locus such a gpx header will be created:
Code: [Select]
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" standalone="yes"?>
<gpx version="1.0" creator="Locus Android"
 xmlns="http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/0"
 xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance"
 xmlns:locus="http://www.locusmap.eu"
 xsi:schemaLocation="http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/0 http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/0/gpx.xsd">
<trk>
<name><![CDATA[Tessellated]]></name>
<desc><![CDATA[If the <tessellate> tag has a value of 1, the line will contour to the underlying terrain

If the <tessellate> tag has a value of 1, the line will contour to the underlying terrain
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Joachim Buhl on September 07, 2013, 21:54:00
Hallo All

I did a test with the new guiding navigation feature this afternoon and it was not very good. To be precise it was so bad, that I changed back to "normal" guiding because otherwise I maybe did not find the way out of the forest again.
I did the test in an unknown area for me on very small paths with a mountainbike. The track had several crossings within itself. See here:
(http://s23.postimg.org/f4fhfggdz/Strecke.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/f4fhfggdz/)
I planned the track on the computer with not many points, what means, that the track is often besides the real way. See here for example:
(http://s9.postimg.org/sig9fcnjv/beside.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/sig9fcnjv/)
Why I did that? I recognized earlier this week that the new navigation test routine simplifies tracks before it gives them the voice notifications. See what I mean:
Original track with a lot of points (recorded track):
(http://s18.postimg.org/7zdib0dd1/record.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/7zdib0dd1/)
Track now with notifications text:high:
(http://s17.postimg.org/ix50o4gqz/high.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ix50o4gqz/)
too much notifications, not feasable.

Track with text:medium:
(http://s13.postimg.org/53np66bf7/medium.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/53np66bf7/)
here now ok, but:
(http://s18.postimg.org/pyhczpt45/mediumbut.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/pyhczpt45/)
no notifications on real crossings.

Back to my test today......So I decided not to do to much points, because otherwise I have to trust the simplification algorithm which I don't want, see pictures above.
This leads to the following problems:
1. When I start the navigation, it starts in "car" mode. This mode does not only mean, that I get the notifications which were "calculated", it also means that my "GPS position" sticks to the track. As long as I am not too far away from the track, I do not see my real position. That means if the track is besides the way I'm also besides the way. And if there is a crossing and I could not see were I am in real, I do not know where to go.
2. The map orientation with the compass is also locked somehow in "car" mode. In normal guiding mode I can move my handle bar around to see where exacly the track is going to. In "car" mode the map is not moving.
3. The 50m notification is far to late. You often hear the 50m notification, when you have to go right immediately.
4. If your off the track (I set 50m with three beeps), the following happens:
(http://s21.postimg.org/enkkunn03/back.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/enkkunn03/)
I'm coming from the right and followed wrong the red arrows. I get three beeps from the first red arrow on, but because of the sticking to the track, I did not see on the map, why I'm wrong. At the red point I can see on the map, that I took the wrong way and there is a line which should lead me to the blue point. Meanwhile I got a lot of beeps. So I go back in opposite to the red arrows (beep, beep, beep) and I'm on the track again (beep, beep, beep). I'm on the right track now, but I get beeps. And I get beeps until I reached the blue point.
5. The automatic display activation is activated from an upcoming notification. If after that notification, the next notification follows right away (within the display timeout) the timeout is not resetted. So the display goes off although there is the next upcoming notification.
6. The display goes off, although I'm beside the track (beep, beep, beep) and I'm trying to get back on track.

To sum it up:
I have to turn at 50m notifications (to late), on crossings where I cannot see where I am (sticked to the track), where I cannot see where to go (no compass movement of map) and when I'm on track,  I hear beeps (sticking) and after recognizing that I'm wrong I cannot see where to go (display is off) and after finding the right way again, I hear beeps further on and I miss the next turn because the display is off (timeout).

Proposal:
1. No sticking. Position behavior like in the old guiding mode.
2. Compass moving map, like in the old guiding mode.
3. 50m notification earlier
4. When your off the track, always pointing back to the nearest point and not the next notification point
5. Reset of display timeout with each single notification
6. Blocking of display off, when away from the track

Thanks

Good night
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on September 07, 2013, 23:07:10
Joachim, thank you for opening our eyes  ;).
I cannot remember of a hard core user of guiding/navigation like you but I'm happy that it's not only me who wants improvements in this area (I request that now for two years).

Well, this is now the very first implementation of the algorithm Willy and I proposed. We already discussed with Menion stuff to be improved (in the now available implementation compared to the proposal at that time and also new improvements in the proposal).
We know (independent of your test):
- Detection of turns to be improved.  Already proposed improvements to Menion.
- TTS output (too much oriented on speed of cars, generally to be improved, Menion plans to do but I do not expect this to happen in the next days)

But:
We decided to propose (and independent of us Menion had the same idea) a system with "magnetic" behaviour, means it is expected that the user stays on track and just GPS reception might be not optimal but user does not go off (otherwise after some distance and time he will get offtrack notifications). This forbids to create tracks which are on purpose too far off the actual path (which you did because you were not happy with track simplification (which is btw. not part of our proposal).
In addition you used a recorded track which seems to be so inaccurate that the algorithm detects slight turns where the actual road is straight. Hmh, there this system somehow reaches its limits as it has only knowledge of the underlying track, it has absolutely no knowledge how accurate it is.

Regarding the display off behaviour I agree with you.

Regarding the pointing back to the track when you're off I agree it might be better if it pointed you back to the nearest point.

Seems you don't use TTS off track guiding but just the beep. TTS would give you more information.

Questions to you:
What is the minimum distance between turns in your course?
Would you provide me your tracks?

I'm not sure if a hard core user like you (GPS in the forest track) will be sacrificed by a feature like this completely but I'm sure we will see better results than now whereby already this is much better in terms of turn detection than the old "Notify when switching to another point".

Have fun on your bike and take always some breadcrumbs with you ;),
tommi
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Joachim Buhl on September 08, 2013, 09:02:06
Hello Tommi

Thanks for answering me, and special thanks for reading my long post.
First of all I want to say, that the guiding feature of Locus and its other abilities (Display on/off, vector maps, MTB themes...) is currently the best in market.
To make it even better we have to discuss what we really need. And this is something, what I do not understand about your approach.

If we talk about the "non hard core" users, the navigation ends up on ways of the category "Waldautobahnen", forest highways.
For these users you do not have to find an algorithm to make notifications out of a track (angle, distance...), but you should use also the map information itself. For this category the routing tools are working better than all possible algorithm. You have also not the problem with sticking, because the track is "planned" directly on the map data. You solve the problem of how to handle 90° turns, without the need of an notification, because the way just makes a turn. Remember https://getsatisfaction.com/locus/topics/difference_between_guiding_and_navigation (https://getsatisfaction.com/locus/topics/difference_between_guiding_and_navigation)
So for this we need a possibility to "translate" a GPX track into a calculated route with using the map data, which exists.
This means Locus needs better routing calculation suppliers (not only A to B, but along a track), or Locus needs an own routing engine.
The current function of planning with Locus is not so bad, if Menion eliminates the useless notification on the connection point of two following segments. See picture "test7" in the link above ("Go east on unnamed road").

For the "hard core" users, the routing with map data (small paths) does not work right now (see my link).
For that problem we need a short term solution. Therefore your algorithm could be helpful, but than we need it without sticking, with moving map and so on. So in the end we need old guiding behavior with a better algorithm using TTS and the opportunity to get additional notification, when your off the track (https://getsatisfaction.com/locus/topics/choose_notify_when_switching_to_another_point_and_notify_when_too_far_away_from_track_at_the_same_time).
To solve the problem of 90° direction changes on a way and the problem of going straight but changing ways we need manual notifications (https://getsatisfaction.com/locus/topics/text_to_speech_reading_waypoints).
For a long term solution we need navigation calculation with map data also for small paths.

To sum it up: Trying to do navigation without using the existing map routing data does not make sense for long term. For short term working on a better algorithm to make navigation without map information is senseless combined with car navigation behavior.

Proposal:
1. New, better (your) algorithm with old guiding + off the track notification + manual TTS readed waypoints.
2. Optimization of notifications when planning tracks with navigation in Locus (No "Go east on unnamed road")
3. Better routing of the external services on small paths or an own routing engine for Locus

I'm looking forward to see how this will develop and I like to discuss about the right way to go.

Thanks

Bye

PS.: Minimum distance between turns is about 15-20m
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Joachim Buhl on September 08, 2013, 12:02:41
Hello All

To 1. I'm corious about the Waypoint generator and I'm really looking forward to test it. For all tests, I'm your man.
        So I tested bikeroutetoaster for 1min. It does not even know the first path in the forest  ;)

To 2. Is the walking modus of the navigation module also "magnetic"?
          Yes, we need the waypoint guiding messenger. Adding and deleting notification waypoints and TTS ability of waypoints will help alot.

I use a Sony Xperia Neo. It uses also Glonass satellites and is even compared to some garmins relativly accurate. The compass is also not so bad. If I'm standing on a Y crossing, I can turn the handle bar and can see on the map where to go, thats possible.

I also rerouted my track from yesterday with Mapquest within Locus. Menion removed the useless notification on the connection between the segments and does not even mentoined it  :).
The result is not so bad. The track is accurate on the path, the notifications are dependend to the map data (no useless direction changes when the path makes a curve) and the ability to delete single notifications is already there.
No magnetic (smallest possible) behavior, compass moving map, adding TTS waypoints manual and I think we would have 90%.
Optimization of display On/Off should also be possible in short term.

Thanks

Bye
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on September 08, 2013, 21:23:47
Hi Joachim, Willy,
basically I agree with all you both wrote.
Joachim, your results with the generated waypoints were worse than needed due to using medium setting.
Medium setting means that the algorithm can detect turrns  with a distance down to 75m in best case. In worst case it's only 150m.
For high setting its 25/50m.
My improved proposal should make it possible to have always ability to detect turns with distance down to 25m in the high setting. However I wish this parameter could be freely configured by the user (minimum expected distance between turns). On the other hand if you set this on low values the danger for false positives exists (turn instructions where is only some deviation in the track.

I personally prefer to plan routes with brouter, sometimes tweaking it by setting extra via points. brouter does not create directional infos, only trackpoints. Here the help of the waypoint generator is perfect (with the well known restrictions, no knowledge of track, generates infos if there is only a curve, is relying on the quality of the input track).

If you, Joachim, are happy with using Mapquest I'm absolutely fine with it. Use the instrument which gives you the best results.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Bucky Kid on September 10, 2013, 09:19:34
Hiyas and thanks to menion for this great feature. I had similar idea in the past already so I wanted to make a couple of suggestions to improve this:
1. allow user to edit the navigation commands at way-points where necessary and mass delete the auto-generated navigation commands by Locus where they're superfluous (or just offer choice to add manual navigation commands by user from scratch). The reason is someone (like me) can use dense routes to follow the trail shape accurately. My idea is that user should not to be flooded by needless voice instruction to avoid then missing truly important way-point. Instead that I would prefer to place navi commands only at points where they're necessary (regardless on current trail shape).
2. I don't know how the voice navigation works but I think it' would be nice if Locus spoke out an notification of route change in some advance and then again very close to the point of direction change like it is done in classic car navigations. It would also be useful if user could choose count and distances of voice notifications preceding the navigation point and if Locus offered a possibility of vibrating event at the same time.
3. Hopefully this useful feature will soon be included in public version of Locus  ;D
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Joachim Buhl on September 16, 2013, 19:54:42
Hello Willy

Thanks for your test.
I've looked to your pdf, not in detail, but I think you experienced the same like I did in my test.
Newest version, planned track on MTB trails.
Shortest distances possible:
(http://s10.postimg.org/bb7wjzpr9/Screenshot_2013_09_14_22_08_59.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/bb7wjzpr9/)
To much information.
Modified distances until first important notifications disappears:
(http://s22.postimg.org/90fmt7kn1/Screenshot_2013_09_14_22_10_32.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/90fmt7kn1/)

To compare: Rerouted track with MapQuest (by foot):
(http://s21.postimg.org/66oh2zdmb/Screenshot_2013_09_14_22_11_42.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/66oh2zdmb/)

To be honest: I think it is simple not possible to get good results without taking the map data into account - period.

So in my opinion Locus should go on with Routing function as followed:
1. Manual instruction editor (delete, create and also customized notifications (TTS))
2. Offroad navigation modus without to much stickyness and with compass map orientation.
3. Automatic rerouting of GPX tracks with routing providers (Mapquest...)

Thanks
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Joachim Buhl on October 20, 2013, 11:51:01
Hello Guys

Whats new to navigation over the last beta versions?

Today I did a navigation route with Mapquest and the annoying "you reached your destination" after each single segment is there again. I thought Menion removed that. Now its there again.

Is the timeout for the display activation changed meanwhile, so that on follow up notifications the display is still activated even for the last one?

What is the plan about the wish to remove and add navigation notification manually?

Thanks

Bye
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Joachim Buhl on October 24, 2013, 09:37:04
Hello

Follow up from here http://forum.locusmap.eu/index.php?topic=3318.new#new .

@Tommi: Yes, I can see my "real" position on the record and also on the end of the heading line.
                   I could live with that. A big point on the end of the line would be nice though.

I've been out two days ago with navigation mode on the mountainbike. The magnetic behavior and the missing moving map (compass) is really a nogo. Together with the fact, that the notifications come very late (at 50m notification its 10m in real) the current navigation mode is useless for mtb-navigation.

And to be honest. I cannot see a big difference between the "old" guiding along a track with TTS and the new "navigation generator" in respect to the notifications, that are given. To make it more precise: The potential advantages of the "navigation generator" is meaningless compared to the disadvantages of magnetic behavior and missing moving map.

Thanks
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on October 24, 2013, 12:33:03
Together with the fact, that the notifications come very late (at 50m notification its 10m in real) the current navigation mode is useless for mtb-navigation.
The late (and regarding distance wrong) notifications are not the problem of the new navigation generator algorithm I proposed and Menion implemented but a problem of still not improved TTS output. Menion promised this to come...

And to be honest. I cannot see a big difference between the "old" guiding along a track with TTS and the new "navigation generator" in respect to the notifications, that are given. To make it more precise: The potential advantages of the "navigation generator" is meaningless compared to the disadvantages of magnetic behavior and missing moving map.
You are right, the navigation generator is only one step (but not a small one) for offline (and offroad) navigation.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: menion on October 24, 2013, 16:37:24
Today I did a navigation route with Mapquest and the annoying "you reached your destination" after each single segment is there again. I thought Menion removed that. Now its there again.

Is this really happen? I'm checking it precisely, and found another small problem with end point but this seems to be correct and no middle point remain in generated track. Is this happen also with newly created tracks? (because it should happen in case, you use any older track that is already stored with this bug)

Is the timeout for the display activation changed meanwhile, so that on follow up notifications the display is still activated even for the last one?
There were no change. Do not understand from your sentence if there is any problem or you miss any feature. This "Turn on display" feature, really just turn on display if is off. Display is then turned off after time you have defined in your devices settings

What is the plan about the wish to remove and add navigation notification manually?

I would like to do it. Seems to be good idea, not too complicated to do. So it's just matter of time. Currently I have some other important tasks, so I would like to work on it at start of next year (to make it all this guiding/navigation) perfectly work on next spring season

I've been out two days ago with navigation mode on the mountainbike. The magnetic behavior and the missing moving map (compass) is really a nogo. Together with the fact, that the notifications come very late (at 50m notification its 10m in real) the current navigation mode is useless for mtb-navigation.
So what would be optimal solution from your field experience? Allow to use "Navigation system in Locus" (not guiding) together with ability to turn off snapping on track?

What about late notifications? I do not have such experiences from my rides on bike or in car. Locus compute distance that should be said, by time to cross minus one second. So if you ride 36km/h, then Locus should say last notification 10 seconds before cross. This means 10 m/s * 10 sec = 100 m. 100 m - distance per 1 sec = 90 m, so you should hear notification 90 metres before cross. Weren't there any problems in GPS signal? Because this should have effect of course

And to be honest. I cannot see a big difference between the "old" guiding along a track with TTS and the new "navigation generator" in respect to the notifications, that are given. To make it more precise: The potential advantages of the "navigation generator" is meaningless compared to the disadvantages of magnetic behavior and missing moving map.
I'm sure it's much more precise.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on October 24, 2013, 17:10:19
Menion, regarding the TTS in navigation mode:
Output is OK if distance is >50m, I often here reasonable 80, 100, 200m.

But:
 The last notification before the actual turn says always 50m (I hear never 40, 30, 20, 10m) but the actual distance to the turn is almost always significantly less than 50m, sometimes it's only immediately before the turn. The reason for this is for sure not bad GPS reception.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: menion on October 24, 2013, 17:54:30
ah yes, this is correct.

Whole TTS system is based on TomTom voices. And in these voices is only 50, 80, 100, 200, ... distances. And I use same system also for TTS.

So problem is not incorrect distance above 50 m, but just incorrect spoke distance below 50 m? Then I'll fix it to next version, not a problem.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Joachim Buhl on October 24, 2013, 19:20:20
Hello Menion

First of all I want to thank you for always be willing to understand the problems of us, your users.
Thats not normal for software companies in these times, thanks.
I will try to describe the problems as precise as I can.

Version: 2.16.0.9
1. Fresh new track created with Mapquest online by foot:
(http://s23.postimg.org/tydkqdirb/Screenshot_2013_10_24_18_54_09.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/tydkqdirb/)
border of to segments.

2. In principle the display activation works fine, but...
The display activation is triggered in advance to a notification, which is coming up. Beginning with this event the system timeout counts for deactivation of display again. If there is the next notification within this timeout, the timeout is not resetted and just counts on. This means, that on the last notification within the timeout the voice says "in 50m right" and than the display gets dark, before you reach the crossing. Only the next notification after display off triggered the timeout again. So the display timeout should be triggered repeatedly at every notification for the full timeout time.
To set the timeout longer (e.g. 5 min) does not help because there will be a notification at 4:55sek and than the display is dark again ;-).

3. manual notifications: Great, I want to test it as soon as possible.

4. Yes, option to turn off snapping and enabling moving (compass) map would be perfect. Than it would be like "old" guiding but with map data related notifications (with Mapquest) - perfect.

5. notification delay: mhhh, so its depending on speed, not bad......Maybe the fast changes in speed during mountainbiking is critical to the calculation. You need always some time to get the GPS speed and when I accelerate afterwards it does not fit anymore,...I don't know.
What Tommi says is, that the 50m notification is not the notification for 50m, but it is the notification to turn instantly? Only the notification text is wrong?
mhhh, also a possibility.

Thanks




Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on October 24, 2013, 19:42:36
ah yes, this is correct.

Whole TTS system is based on TomTom voices. And in these voices is only 50, 80, 100, 200, ... distances. And I use same system also for TTS.

So problem is not incorrect distance above 50 m, but just incorrect spoke distance below 50 m? Then I'll fix it to next version, not a problem.
Yesss, that's it!!!
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: menion on October 25, 2013, 14:22:10
@joachim:
1) I did some changes and I hope it will fix it

2) good point, fixes

3) me too :)

4) understand, I'll keep this in my mind

5) I'll try to optimize this to next version

@tommi:
hmm it will be worst, because texts have to be in text files. I'll try to improve it a little bit now anyway

EDIT: anyone plan any trip on weekend? I'll have to go somewhere out for a test because I improved a little distance notification http://forum.locusmap.eu/index.php?topic=3423.msg24024#msg24024 and testing at home is little bit .. not perfect :)
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on October 26, 2013, 14:38:10
I just prepared a test track (with brouter).
Then I started the navigation test and it calculated the navigation.
But not until the end of the input track. Only for the first 200 points of the input track.
Is there such a limit in Locus?
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on October 26, 2013, 14:44:52
I just prepared a test track (with brouter).
Then I started the navigation test and it calculated the navigation.
But not until the end of the input track. Only for the first 200 points of the input track.
Is there such a limit in Locus?
I think I can answer the question about the limit myself: no such limit because I converted already tracks with many more points.
Sent you the track Menion.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Joachim Buhl on October 26, 2013, 16:06:30
Hello Menion

I just came back from a testdrive with 2.16.0.11.
You changed something on the notifications, right.
Now I get a notification at 300m, the next one right before the intersection with just "right" and than the third notification "right" during cornering.
I think it should be at 200m, maybe 25m before and than just right before cornering like the second notification at the moment.
My question is. Are the distances for the notifications fixed or could you do them depending on navigation mode? pedestrian, cycle, car? Maybe it make sense to have different distances.

Strange enough. When I leave the forest with small paths and change to streets to come home, there appears a 50m notification and one just before cornering, how it should be when you would drive by car.
Everything was tested with a route generated by Mapquest segments.

BTW: You also removed the "you reached your destination" at the connection of the segments, nice. But the system still sets "you reached...." when there is a segment which is done without Mapquest and just with a straight line.
Sometimes this is needed because mapquest does not want to got the way it could go, even the intersection is clearly existing in mapdata (potlatch, intersection, no turning restrictions).

Thanks
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on October 26, 2013, 16:45:57
Though I used a brouter based track with the waypoint  generator in Locus I basically can confirm Joachim's observations.
Especially when there is a combination of turns like a right turn in e.g. 80m followed by a left turn after further 25m Locus says "turn right after 80 meter and then turn left after 50 meter".

I never heard a distance shorter than 50m. Please improve!
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: menion on October 27, 2013, 11:26:40
hmm weird ...

I had drive in streets in city (around 5 km) and all worked as expected.

About distances - notifications are based on speed => time to cross, not directly on distance. So notifications should appear 10, 30 and 300 seconds before cross. Or +- some time.

About distance below 50 m - I wrote "hmm it will be worst, because texts have to be in text files". Currently you should hear notifications without distance for order 0 - 30 m before, for 30 - 65 m you should hear "50 m", for 65 - 90 m "80 m", 95 - 150 you should hear "100 m", etc ...I'm aware that is should be better (more precise), on second side I still do not have working solution for updating TTS navigation files

EDIT: and thanks for a track over email - I had in Locus serious problem in compute of distance, so it's fixed now, thank you!
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Joachim Buhl on October 27, 2013, 12:05:23
Hi Menion

I do not understand your edit. Did you find the problem we describe? Did you solve it? What did you fix?

I can confirm that notifications smaller than 30m are without distance.
I can confirm that on real streets there is a notifiacation at 50m and short before, like it should be.

My problems are two notifications without distance right following each other during cornering (short before and during).
And only one long before at 300m. This all on small paths/ways out in the forest.

Bye
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: menion on October 27, 2013, 12:31:03
joachim and this happen when you "walk" or even on a "bike"? Maybe there should be different times based on foot/bike/car. Because your notification 300 m before, should be first 300 seconds and last two without distance should be 30 a 10 seconds before
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Joachim Buhl on October 27, 2013, 13:01:41
Hi

I only tested it on the bike.
Different times could make sense. Configurable would be nice.

Thanks
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on October 27, 2013, 13:34:14
Hi Menion
I do not understand your edit. Did you find the problem we describe? Did you solve it? What did you fix?
The fix is related to the waypoint generator, has nothing to do with "your" problems.


About distance below 50 m - I wrote "hmm it will be worst, because texts have to be in text files". Currently you should hear notifications without distance for order 0 - 30 m before, for 30 - 65 m you should hear "50 m", for 65 - 90 m "80 m", 95 - 150 you should hear "100 m", etc ...I'm aware that is should be better (more precise), on second side I still do not have working solution for updating TTS navigation files
What is the problem with these files?
They are contained in the apk and few experienced users have a modified copy in the tts folder.
Increment the version number for the TTS file, add the necessary entries in the apk contained file and let Locus complain about outdated TTS file in tts folder.
Or do I misunderstand the mechanism?
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Joachim Buhl on November 24, 2013, 09:24:51
Hi you navigation guys

Last week I tested the current state of navigation setup (route with navigation notifications created by MapQuest, no snap to track, moving map, heading line activated, automatic display on/off, off the track notification) in a totally foreign terrain with a 2h tour right before its getting dark.
And I must say, it works very good. Here my opinion in short:
Good:
- orientation without snap to track and with moving map is like it should be. Very good for mountainbiking
- automatic display on works great
- notification are good and useful, but not perfect
- Route created with mapquest is good, with some small issues
This all is definitly the right way to go on.

Issues:
- automatic display on sometimes switches off screen despite the next turn (timeout issue)
- the last two notifications are still to short to each other and the last one is too late over all.
- Off the track behavior is strange. It chooses the wrong point to come back to the track
- Route creation with redrawing a track is not very handy.

More things to do in order off priority:
- fixing the small issues above (display timeout issue, notification, off track behavior)
- possibility to add manual notifications or to delete some and to modify existing ones (to get not only "turn right" but "turn right after bridge...")
- automatic rerouting of a track to get notifications (Mapquest or Locus internal engine)

Thats for now.
Over all I'm very satisfied with the current devolopment and its very nice to see, that with every version we get new functionality and our proposals find the way into the program.
Thanks alot!

Bye

Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on November 24, 2013, 12:44:12
Hi you navigation guys
Hi Joachim,
Actually I would call you the same.
Quote from: Joachim Buhl
Good:
- orientation without snap to track and with moving map is like it should be. Very good for mountainbiking
I think it is helpful in all situations where the planned route does not match exactly with the currently measured location, just yesterday in deep forest I found it  helpful during a hike.
Quote from: Joachim Buhl

- Off the track behavior is strange. It chooses the wrong point to come back to the track
Wrong point?

To my knowledge and also my experience the point with the shortest straight line distance to your current measured position is taken. If you continue to deviate from the planned track, a different point later on the track might be selected - depending on the straight line distance between you and the track.

I could imagine you'd like to go back to the track where you left it.
Both can be useful, I wouldn't say that anything is wrong here.

Not sure if it could help to remove the tick from
http://docs.locusmap.eu/doku.php/manual:settings:guiding / Tracks / Auto-select best point

But maybe I got you wrong, please clarify.
Quote from: Joachim Buhl
- Route creation with redrawing a track is not very handy.
Not sure what you mean.
I can drag a point in Route and Measure but the two affected route parts are not recalculated. Should be possible to improve that, I guess, which would improve usability of this function greatly.
Quote from: Joachim Buhl
- automatic rerouting of a track to get notifications (Mapquest or Locus internal engine)
Don't get what you mean.
Quote from: Joachim Buhl
Thats for now.
Over all I'm very satisfied with the current devolopment and its very nice to see, that with every version we get new functionality and our proposals find the way into the program.
Me too :)
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Joachim Buhl on November 24, 2013, 19:21:57
Hello Tommi
Quote from: tommi
....
Quote from: Joachim Buhl
- Off the track behavior is strange. It chooses the wrong point to come back to the track
Wrong point?
See this post: http://forum.locusmap.eu/index.php?topic=3488.msg25037#msg25037

---
Quote from: tommi
...
Quote from: Joachim Buhl
- Route creation with redrawing a track is not very handy.
Not sure what you mean.
I can drag a point in Route and Measure but the two affected route parts are not recalculated. Should be possible to improve that, I guess, which would improve usability of this function greatly.
No, I mean the only opportunity to get a route with notifications right now is to import a GPX file and than follow this route segment to segment with routing function of Mapquest. It would be nice to simple select the GPX file, click "Create route" and than I have all notifications coming from a "real" routing with mapdata behind that.

---
Quote from: tommi
...
Quote from: Joachim Buhl
- automatic rerouting of a track to get notifications (Mapquest or Locus internal engine)
Don't get what you mean.
What I described before.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on November 24, 2013, 19:59:27
Strange, I never had the  problem with the wrongly never ending off track beep/text.
What is your setting for "Auto select best point"?
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Joachim Buhl on November 25, 2013, 19:57:24
Hello Tommi

Its checked/activated, but...

it only applies, when you are in guiding mode.
If you are in navigation mode, you only get into guiding mode when this is activated in navigation settings (invalid distance).
But in navigation settings there is also a point "out of track" notification. How this setting, the setting of invalid distance and the setting under guiding works together, I don't know.

Thanks

Bye
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on November 25, 2013, 21:23:05
OK, I see that now.
Seems to be new and I don't understand as well.
My last test was with 2.17.1.1 and there it worked as I described.
I think we need advice from the boss.
Menion could you explain these settings?
Thanks
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: menion on November 26, 2013, 09:05:30
hi,
  I'm just thinking about next step with this "navigation" system. On first side, "Navigation generator" now works quite well, so I think about publishing it to next public version. On second side, I'm not sure what to do next, what to improve first etc :)

  About "Out of track" notification. I separated these two settings, because when you use navigation and you ride "out of track", so Locus change to "Guiding style", it still works as navigation and it still use notification from navigation settings. When you ride a car, you usually wants to hear notification sooner, so I decided to add these two settings as a separate items. Anyway as I wrote about it, I'm no more 100% sure it's a good idea :)
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on November 26, 2013, 17:56:11
OK, so it's intentionally separated and independent settings.

But as you may be have read Joachim has the problem that Locus doesn't recognize he returned to track on a later point and continuously beeps. This needs clarification.

I personally would like to see aah hear improved and accurate TTS because this helps both users of navigation with e.g. Mapquest as users appreciating the Locus internal waypoint generator based on any track.
And both methods suffer from inaccurate TTS.
And then all the rest :D
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Joachim Buhl on November 26, 2013, 21:47:00
Hello Menion

I think you can release the navigation generator (nobody gets hurt by it).
Otherwise:

More things to do in order off priority:
- fixing the small issues above (display timeout issue, notification, off track behavior)
- possibility to add manual notifications or to delete some and to modify existing ones (to get not only "turn right" but "turn right after bridge...")
- automatic rerouting of a track to get notifications (Mapquest or Locus internal engine)

 ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Thanks
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: menion on November 27, 2013, 11:19:36
Oki guys,
  so ...

1) TTS files ... what about updating files stored on Google Docs? It's possible to edit directly text files if you have Google Drive installed on your device and synchronized, or it's possible to edit text files on web.

Recommended: In you Google Docs (http://docs.google.com), tap on "Tools" > "Manage apps" > "Connect more apps" > "Anyfile Notepad"! It allows directly edit these TTS files on web and mainly, has very good JSON syntax highlight and error reports (incorrect syntax)

files are here: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B3W5Lc1CHcKod1pobXlpdHdUYkU&usp=sharing

2) in TTS files is now more distances for more precise notification and I also increased time of report before cross, from 10 to 15 seconds, so we will see if this helps

3) I've updated GUI for "Generate navigation" (previously Navigation generator) feature so it will be in next (maybe tomorrow) version

4) You talked about moving point in "Add new route & measure" feature where this move do not recompute track, but I'm sure it works correctly. Run this feature, start creating route together with "Mapquest compute", add two segments (three points) and then move with middle one

Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on November 27, 2013, 15:38:01
Oki guys,
  so ...

1) TTS files ... what about updating files stored on Google Docs? It's possible to edit directly text files if you have Google Drive installed on your device and synchronized, or it's possible to edit text files on web.

Recommended: In you Google Docs (http://docs.google.com), tap on "Tools" > "Manage apps" > "Connect more apps" > "Anyfile Notepad"! It allows directly edit these TTS files on web and mainly, has very good JSON syntax highlight and error reports (incorrect syntax)

files are here: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B3W5Lc1CHcKod1pobXlpdHdUYkU&usp=sharing
Ahm, if I edit here I would change the file for all users? I use special, very short text strings, so I shouldn't change it for all users.
Quote from: menion
2) in TTS files is now more distances for more precise notification and I also increased time of report before cross, from 10 to 15 seconds, so we will see if this helps
Ok, I see, now we have 1..10, 50, 80, 100, 200, ...
Of course I need to wait for  next Locus version but don't you think more steps between 10 and 50 would be needed?
Will the TTS output fit for walker (ca. 5km/h), biker (15-40km/h), car driver (20-150km/h)?
Edit: Especially for the situation with consecutive instructions the distance for the 2nd one can be any distance e.g. 25m and Locus can only tell "and then after 50m left/right"  :(
Quote from: menion
3) I've updated GUI for "Generate navigation" (previously Navigation generator) feature so it will be in next (maybe tomorrow) version
Fine, very much appreciated
Quote from: menion
4) You talked about moving point in "Add new route & measure" feature where this move do not recompute track, but I'm sure it works correctly. Run this feature, start creating route together with "Mapquest compute", add two segments (three points) and then move with middle one
Strange, I tried before I wrote this and it didn't work (I also somehow expected it wouldn't work). Now I tried again and it worked but... not always, maybe 3 out of 4 times. Sometimes the bubble with text doesn't pop up and also no new route is calculated. Sorry for poor description.
Is there any timeout for the time the finger is touching the display? I got the impression it doesn't work if I have the finger longer on the display in order to place the point accurately.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: menion on November 27, 2013, 16:29:47
yes, TTS files in Google Drive are for all people. What you change there, will be in next version.

Anyway, please read "README" file first! There is list of what changed since previous version and what needs to be added to other then en.tts file!

4) ... hmm weird, I never had a problem. Have to play with it more anyway this feature is there for years and should work. And it's very usable :)
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on November 27, 2013, 16:35:24
ah, good news for TTS:
27. 11. 2013
- added to "numbers_N1" values "20", "30", "40", "60", "70", "90"
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on November 27, 2013, 16:40:38
yes, TTS files in Google Drive are for all people. What you change there, will be in next version.
So I should maintain my own copy with my special texts.
Quote from: menion
Anyway, please read "README" file first! There is list of what changed since previous version and what needs to be added to other then en.tts file!
Yes, of course but anyway "diff" does a good job :)

Quote from: menion
4) ... hmm weird, I never had a problem. Have to play with it more anyway this feature is there for years and should work. And it's very usable :)
Strange even after more than two years Locusing and here on the forum I was not aware of this. Think there are still many hidden treasures in Locus. :P
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: ta-ka on November 28, 2013, 05:46:36
I just tell you that I've updated 'ja.tts' at Google Docs following the menion's instruction.

Quote
27. 11. 2013
- added to "numbers_N1" values "20", "30", "40", "60", "70", "90"
Good News.  I had also been waiting for this.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: menion on November 28, 2013, 08:14:34
thank you ta-ka, perfect
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on December 02, 2013, 19:01:51
Menion, i tried a brouter track based navigation and the spoken distances are better now, especially in sequences of turns the 2nd (and 3rd etc) were always with wrong distances due to missing distance texts. This problem is fixed now :).

I tried a hike and the last notification (without distance) gets spoken 10-20m before the turn. Is this a fix distance or does it depend on current speed? For a biker this distance seems to be OK but for a walker it is too early.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on December 07, 2013, 14:52:55
Menion, how does the lookup in <language>.tts for "numbers_N1" work?
Does Locus expect certain values in the list or does Locus take the best matching value from the file?
The latter option would allow to add personal values like 150m etc.
Could you answer to my previous post as well?

OT: My post #1000 :D.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Joachim Buhl on December 08, 2013, 10:00:40
Hello Menion

Currently I'm testing navigation feature each morning on the way to work (by car) with different setups.
I use 2.17.4, with de.tts added with 20m,30m,40m.
I think you are on a good way:
Notifications:
1. The first notification is coming earlier now. At city speed around 400m before.
2. The second notification comes between 50m and 20m and the notification really uses the 20m,30m,40m, nice. But it's a little late. Sometimes I get the 50m right before turning. Maybe its due to limited recources on my phone. Has to be checked by other users.
3. There is no notification direct before turning anymore. So no more "turn right now". It is gone intentionally?

Out of track behavior:
1. Obviously when you are off the track, the navigation symbol is moving on the track according to the real position rectangular to the track, I assume, right? This means you are far away from the track but you will still get the notifications right when the navigation symbol reaches the right distance to the next turn. I think it would be better, that the notifications are getting deactivated, when you leave the track more than X meters. Maybe you can combine it with the setting of invalid distance. If this is reached the notifications gets deactivated until you are back on track again.

General question:
What is your goal for the navigation feature in Locus?
Do you want to be an alternative to Navigon, TomTom.... or do you want to be specialized for offroad navigation.
If you want to be an alternative to Navigon..., we have to begin to differ the settings according to the navigation mode.
This means: car navigation -> stick to track, automatic zoom x, y,z, Notification distances x, y, z.
by foot -> no stick on track, other autozoom setup, other notifications
bike -> no stick, other autozoom, other notifications, turning map.....

Do you know what I mean. This could get complicated.

Thanks
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: menion on December 08, 2013, 10:49:22
Guys, sorry for slow repsonses these days. I am fully focused on some work on special version of Locus. It's our first order from existing company on specialized version and it have to be done till end of January, so I'm little bit hurry now. Anyway ...

@tommi: all distances are computed from speed. And speed is "average speed" from last 60 seconds. So if you will just walk, then locus took your speed (around let's say 1.5 m/s) and compute distances for times 15, 35 and 300 seconds and will try to say them. So in this case, if you will walk, locus will try to notify you on 15 * 1.5 = 22m, 35 * 1.5 = 52m, 300 * 1.5 = 450m . Same for car, cycle ...

About distances in tts file - you have good idea. Currently Locus expect values as are defined in en.tts. But you're right, I should allow to add there values you want. Good point, I'll look at it. Anyway till then, Locus take only values that are defined in en.tts

@joachim: "What is your goal for the navigation feature in Locus?"
Firstly, I never wanted to create from locus a navigation tool. I always wanted mainly map app. Navigation comes as a logical step after guiding and because it works quite well on such map app, people want logically more :). Anyway I still have Navigation as a minor feature, that is only an bonus for major features of Locus. So I will never want to have from locus full alternative to some major navigation tools like TomTom etc.

What I currently want from navigation is best possible experience in the wild. What currently miss, is by me only "offline mode". Navigation generator is nice tool that may helps in case you want to ride along some road and do not want to have permanently turned screen on. But it's not full alternative to real "Navigation".

There is anyway many reports from you, Tommi and other on Navigation and Navigation generator. I had not yet time to read them all and do something with this, but I'll promise. I do not like to have only half-baked features, so I for sure want to make it work perfectly (soon or later)
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on December 08, 2013, 18:53:50
Hi Menion,
thanks for your elaborated answer, this gives a much better understanding. And of course I'm happy that my questions regarding distances leads to an improvement in Locus :).

I'm really happy that people use Locus not only in sparetime but also helps people doing their job. And of course it's even better that you got an order from a company. I really appreciate this because I always have a slight guilt feeling that the community (including me of course) keep you from doing a job where you can earn money on a regular basis.

Keep the brilliant work ongoing and have a nice xmas and new year!

Unfortunately I won't find time to celebrate with you and other Locus users in Prague, sorry.

Cheers,
Tommi
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: menion on December 08, 2013, 19:01:45
Sure, you're welcome :)

I'm sure you do not have to feel guilty. I heard quite a lot of times, about my stupidity, that I miss oportunity to earn a lot of money on this app etc etc., but I'm the kind of guy, who rather spend time on doing something that makes him happy, in friendly community/company etc, then doing something with primary target to make a money. In the end, I think that it result in better product :)

And project from company is something, that will be later available also for public. Special version of Locus for data collecting and GIS applications. But it will take a lot of time.

Anyway have a nice before-after-christmas time too. Don't worry about party. It's mainly Peters initiative and because it's really an five minutes after twelve, when he started some preparations, I think we will leave this on some spring/summer days, rather.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: rvheddeg on December 09, 2013, 22:20:11
Just to tell you that I've uploaded 'nl.tts' at Google Docs following your earlier instructions. I hope this works for Dutch also.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: druki on December 21, 2013, 13:03:25
Hello,
I tested navigation beta with the new test version. Unfortunately the value for "time to destination" is not computed correctly. The "time to next instruction" is shown instead in the dashboard and selectable valuefield. Could this be fixed easily?
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on December 23, 2013, 10:38:09
Hi Menion,
as quite often I created a little tour with brouter yesterday.
I pressed Navigation Beta and it seemed that navigation started but there were no instructions for left right etc.
I had a look on the display with the pink track. Usually it shows white arrows at the location of turns. Though there were lots of turns not a single white arrow was displayed.
As this always worked in the past I tried to find out what's so different with this track.
And here is the result: Navigation Beta doesn't indicate turns if start point is equal to end point of the track. I have a POI "at home" which I used for begin and end of the track. Seems I didn't use this POI for both ends of the track in the past.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: menion on December 23, 2013, 18:56:04
thanks guys. I want invest some more time to this feature before end of the year (to make it work to next version), so I'll check both problems. Anyway issue from druki should be fixed in test version, but I'll rather check it once more
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: druki on December 24, 2013, 12:11:18
Hi, I tested some more. Don't know what was wrong last time (old Track from before new test version). This time I tested with GPS deactivated (ok, values of both time fields are no more identical :-) ). I see a strange behavior between time to next instruction and time to destination. The last digit of seconds seem to be identical and the minutes of time to destination seem to be to much. The last point could be because of no GPS (=no speed to calculate time. But then, the seconds should be some other value, too?!). Maybe it's just the way I tested. Attached screenshots of my test to show more clearly what I mean (mind minutes and seconds of both fields).
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/24/uruga2e7.jpg) (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/24/jubagypa.jpg) (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/24/adabuhes.jpg) (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/24/uva7u4uq.jpg) (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/24/y7ubysyn.jpg) (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/24/a4a9azag.jpg)
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: menion on December 27, 2013, 21:47:03
druki thanks for screenshots, but in this case - it's not possible to test these numbers correctly on sofa, really. Or at least it's needed to set simulated speed in configuration file. Without this, Locus think that you move an almost 0 km/h, so time values makes no sense ...
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: druki on December 28, 2013, 00:01:43
Ok, this was a sofa test, but I used speed_for_moving_cursor_when_gps_off=10.0
Aditionally I just found out that the identical last second only occurs during final approach. Before that, the time to destination (dashboard value) is only changing at instruction points not in between. Tomorrow I will go out in "real world" to see what is happening and get some trackdata to reproduce.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: menion on December 28, 2013, 12:46:13
ah you had "speed_for_moving_cursor_when_gps_off" set, hmm. I'll check it during next days (leaving on three day visit to my mom, so enough possibilities to test). Btw. nice car icon ;)
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: druki on December 29, 2013, 02:16:28
Hi Menion,
today I had the chance of riding the bus and do some screenshots of this. Seems there is still a bug in computing the time to destination. See speed (is ok),  distance to destination (is ok) and time to destination (too large value). Ah, and I see: Time of arival (13:12) is also too large...(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/29/a6ade8uq.jpg)
Icon is our van "Nellie" (named after song "Nellie the elephant", because: big, grey, strong) ;-)
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Sersus on December 30, 2013, 18:54:04
First I have to say that I am very impressed with this new function! It was a long waited option to ride on bicycle within the previously recorded random (or borrowed other) track with the voice prompts.
So after some testing with random tracks I have two rationalization suggestions.

1. I think its a good idea to voice the distance to the next driving maneuver provided that the distance to it is more than 1 kilometer. I have to explain this. When riding with the phone in the pocket, after the another turn you dont know how many kilometers you have to go further. So for example riding half an hour with silence you mentally start to worry about the program itself (it may crash) or phone itself or any other shit can happen! BUT when you know exactly that you must ride forward for 5,5 kilometers you can just relax and pedaling. ))) Just say "Keep moving more than 5 kilometers".

2. Recorded tracks often have the errors or unnecessary movements on the spot.

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9811/49727497.f/0_bd923_19caeb2f_L.png)

I think it would be a good thing for the algorithm to ignore the small track inaccuracy within 20-30 meters. I.E. if the radius of the some maneuvers is within the range of 20-30 meters and after them the direction of the route is still the same - there is no need to specify maneuvers.

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6726/49727497.f/0_bd921_8701d342_L.png) (http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9830/49727497.f/0_bd922_f4bc1353_L.png)

The voice guiding will be confusing in such case.
Or in general if the track has more than one maneuver (change of the directions) within the range of 20-30 meters it would be logical to only take into account the last waypoint where the direction is changing.
For example in this case we have not the true left turn but "take the left" only.

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9756/49727497.f/0_bd924_c8f0a6c3_L.png)


Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on December 30, 2013, 20:25:42
First I have to say that I am very impressed with this new function! It was a long waited option to ride on bicycle within the previously recorded random (or borrowed other) track with the voice prompts.
So after some testing with random tracks I have two rationalization suggestions.
Thank you for your detailled review, suggestions are always welcome.
Quote from: Sersus
1. I think its a good idea to voice the distance to the next driving maneuver provided that the distance to it is more than 1 kilometer. I have to explain this. When riding with the phone in the pocket, after the another turn you dont know how many kilometers you have to go further. So for example riding half an hour with silence you mentally start to worry about the program itself (it may crash) or phone itself or any other shit can happen! BUT when you know exactly that you must ride forward for 5,5 kilometers you can just relax and pedaling. ))) Just say "Keep moving more than 5 kilometers".
So your suggestion is to add an additional instruction in case there is a long distance to the next turn. Fully agreed.
In case you get off track the off-track notification should help you but you are right, empty battery, crashed phone, pulled off plug from the phone, etc. are things which may worry the user. We should keep in mind that there shouldn't be awful lot of TTS hints because this becomes annoying after some time. But just one more after the last turn before a long straight part of the track should be ok. I'm not sure when the first announcement for the next turn comes but the new one should only be inserted in case the distance is much longer than the distance for the first announcement
Quote from: Sersus

2. Recorded tracks often have the errors or unnecessary movements on the spot.

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9811/49727497.f/0_bd923_19caeb2f_L.png)

I think it would be a good thing for the algorithm to ignore the small track inaccuracy within 20-30 meters. I.E. if the radius of the some maneuvers is within the range of 20-30 meters and after them the direction of the route is still the same - there is no need to specify maneuvers.

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6726/49727497.f/0_bd921_8701d342_L.png) (http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9830/49727497.f/0_bd922_f4bc1353_L.png)

The voice guiding will be confusing in such case.
Or in general if the track has more than one maneuver (change of the directions) within the range of 20-30 meters it would be logical to only take into account the last waypoint where the direction is changing.
For example in this case we have not the true left turn but "take the left" only.

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9756/49727497.f/0_bd924_c8f0a6c3_L.png)
What setting did you choose for your navigation? I guess "Number of orders = High". Try with Medium (you can do it from the sofa, no need to do the >100km ride again) for the critical situations.
Maybe I should explain what this "Number of orders" actually means. The setting is not to let the TTS talk and talk and talk. The idea is to configure (and my proposal for this setting is still "minimum expected distance between turns". "Number of orders = High" is I think equivalent to "Minimum expected distance between turns = 20m". I don't know the equivalent for medium and low, Menion should tell us.
I could imagine that 40m or 50m would be ideal in your case. Keep in mind that the algorithm for "Navigation on all tracks" is without any knowledge of roads, it only knows the track and it doesn't know why there is a turn in the track.

Why is high equivalent to 20m nevertheless useful? People also use accurate tracks, e.g. calculated by brouter (c.f. http://forum.locusmap.eu/index.php?topic=3434 for details) and if you e.g. take a ride through a village not following the main road it happens quite often that there is a sequence of two turns like a zig-zag with a distance of e.g. 15-40m. The setting medium as well as your proposal will not detect this zig-zag.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: druki on March 13, 2014, 00:36:34
Last weekend in deepest bavaria without mobile network, I needed brouter with Navigation beta again and like to show you the curious time to drive 142km...
(http://s23.postimg.org/4hhoq39x3/evepuzyz.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/4hhoq39x3/)
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: menion on March 13, 2014, 14:44:56
hello druki, looks like looong trip :)

Anyway hard to say what cause this.

May you please write me:
 - source of track (how you computed this)?
 - was such nonsense visible all the time on some straight parts or just during some break? (then it's possible, because your speed was at this moment really very low).
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: druki on March 14, 2014, 01:28:44
Source was brouter in car mode.
Navigation beta was always in real GPS mode and the speed of 116 km/h is correct (on higway i had the chance to make the screenshot without big danger).
At the next filling station I was back in mobile network, used Mapsforge and real navigation and it was perfect.
I think, the bug is in beta navigation regardless which source. I will test this soon by following a handmate track (without and routing service for computing the track).
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: menion on March 14, 2014, 07:46:37
I think this won't be a problem of BRouter. I was asking mainly because when you compute route online, there are some estimated times I use. Anyway in BRouter as well as imported track, these times aren't, so there is need to compute required times in any way. And here is probably problem on such loong track ...
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Joachim Buhl on April 06, 2014, 12:31:55
Hallo All

Winter is over, New routes have to be planned.
Today i recognized, that planning a route with mapquest doesn't return "visible" turn instructions anymore. Since when was that changed? Are they still produced but not showed anymore? So now you cannot check if there are all needed instructions. Because often Mapquest miss to create some.
I also read, that there is a new feature. Something like TTS for waypoints? Where can I find this feature?
What does it do? Does it read a text saved in a waypoint, when I reach a certain distance to the point?
This would be perfect to add turn instructions, where Mapquest missed some. But this I cannot see, because.....see above...the circle closes ;-)

Thanks
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: druki on April 06, 2014, 13:48:46
Hi Joachim, I think you mixed it a bit, see first post of this threat and http://support.locusmap.eu/hc/en-us/articles/200197661-Types-of-navigation . Navigation (computed by an external service):  http://support.locusmap.eu/hc/en-us/articles/200106731-Navigate-To . Guiding to waypoints and notifications about this is something different: http://support.locusmap.eu/hc/en-us/articles/200118982-Notification-view . To see the settings for notification, click in Locus settings "Routenführung (Guiding)" on the word "Benachrichtigung" (in German) left to the switch.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: menion on April 06, 2014, 13:52:21
Ah Joachim is partially right ...

I was looking on generated tracks by "Add new route" feature and was still looking that there is missing something. And it was icons with navigation orders :). Thank you Joachim, I'll fix it to next version.

About TTS to waypoints - this was introduced currently only for "POI Alert" feature, not for any kind of navigation/guiding
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Sersus on April 06, 2014, 16:45:43
Meanwhile I am using this feature every time I ride the bike! And I would like to say a GREAT THANK for this voice supported navigation! I don't even know how to express my delight...
 :-*
So I would like to offer another enhancement.
On the screenshot the red dotted line is the planned way with "medium" level of voices.

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9835/49727497.10/0_c8970_4590e05f_XL.png)

The purple line is the real passed way. The purple circle is the place where I tried to stop warning about the deviation from the route, but a single menu item "Nearest point" was hard redirect me to the red dot. And it was warning for about a 1 km of the way from the purple circle until the next point (purple down arrow).
Thus I think it would be a good idea to add a menu item for "Next point" (next waypoint).

Also it will be good to make an option to view the compass-oriented rotating arrow instead of route-fixed car during the navigation!

And thank you again for this type of navigation!  :)
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: menion on April 07, 2014, 21:43:07
Hello Sersus,

glad you like it. Whole idea is based on work of tommi and 0709 in this topic http://forum.locusmap.eu/index.php?topic=3372.0 , so big thanks belowns to them

Anyway
1) weird that locus do not correctly pointed you on next point on track. Add something like "Next point" is possible, but much better should be if all is automatical

2) you may try disable "Snap to track" in menu > settings > navigation . It should help with rotation of cursor and snapping to track during a ride
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Sersus on August 06, 2014, 10:06:00
Do you plan to do the backward navigation along tracks?
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: tommi on August 06, 2014, 17:42:01
Backward navigation isn't actually necessary.
It would be sufficient to offer not only making a copy of a track but also a reverse copy of a track.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Sersus on August 06, 2014, 20:03:08
Thank you! Now I am using 3.1.3. I will be waiting when the test version (with ability to reverse tracks) to be released.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Bucky Kid on August 17, 2014, 21:18:34
Hello, I tested this feature today thoroughly with latest beta and I must say it's working fairly good. Good work ;)
But I have one suggestion about voice navigation. For outdoor it comes too early (500m and 200m before turning point, then no more notifications). I propose to replace the notify 500m before by notify closely (10-20m) before turning point. The 200m before announce is good. Or can the notices be configured somewhere? This would be best  8)
Also notify distances before turning depending on moving speed would be comfortable (the higher speed, the sooner the commands come)
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Sersus on November 18, 2014, 21:47:26
Now I have the new phone with the newly installed Locus Pro.
Two days ago we had the 147km road trip on bikes. After 100km the problem I described here (http://forum.locusmap.eu/index.php?topic=3372.msg28287#msg28287 (http://forum.locusmap.eu/index.php?topic=3372.msg28287#msg28287)) appeared again and made me to cut off the passed part of the route in order to have possibility to continue the navigation. This method with cutting off is the only way to continue navigation since it was implemented in Locus.  ;)
So today I had to conduct the experiment. Before riding on the "A-104" road (see the screenshot) in the bus I created an experimental zigzag route. In the first 3-4km the navigation algorithm had the good job. But at one point it stopped and started to draw me to passed point. And the menu item "Nearest point" was hard redirect me to that passed point.
That is usually in such cases in the real world it is no a further opportunity to continue the navigation or even restart it! It is always draw you to the one distant magical point... The cutting off all the passed way is the only method.

(http://savepic.org/6548883m.png) (http://savepic.org/6548883.htm)
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Sersus on November 19, 2014, 21:46:00
Unfortunately I deleted this temp route.
But today I created a new one (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7hszS9Kz3cVckt5cXpLZ3N4X28/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7hszS9Kz3cVckt5cXpLZ3N4X28/view?usp=sharing)) and the problem became obvious! I am sure that you can create your own random zigzag route along your real way and after some distance the guiding will stop. The "Nearest point" will be useless. And even the attempts to restart navigation will not help.
As you can see on my today screenshot:

(http://savepic.org/6532352m.png) (http://savepic.org/6532352.htm)
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Sersus on November 20, 2014, 13:55:44
Ok, but if the stock Locus can import your .tcx file I will can test it only in 2-4 days being on that road.
Too many trackpoints in that internal track resulting in unresponsive phone. The generated Navigational Coursepoints are not the problem but that very large trackfile is I suppose.
May be. I typically use 120-140km hand-drawn quite complicated .klm files. But this zigzag file is too small and with a lot of deviations from the real position.
Title: Re: Navigation on all tracks
Post by: Sersus on November 27, 2014, 13:09:23
Import this file in Locus and go directy to  Navigation. (No BearLeft/Right or SharpLeft/Right).
Yesterday I have tried your .tcx variant of my zigzag route and it was all ok. The navigation worked good and smooth. (It is а  separate topic about its practicality and a (dubious) benefits from its simplicity. IMHO.)