Author Topic: Struggeling with Route creation for Mountainbiking  (Read 1712 times)

Offline Joachim Buhl

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Struggeling with Route creation for Mountainbiking
« on: January 24, 2016, 13:04:04 »
Hello Forum

My goal is to create Mountainbike Tours with navigation instructions generated from real map data.
In principle Locus with MapQuest do a good job. You have everything you need. Great Maps (Openandromaps with MTB theme, Mapquest route service), so lets start.
You follow some paths in the forrest by adding point after point. Between the points MapQuest is routing according the paths and creates instructions on the crossings.
Problem 1: The map data is not perfect, so you do not get an instruction whereever you need it.
Problem 2: On each point you set, Locus places a "Zwischenziel"/"in between/going over point" and/or a "you have arrived at your destination" point.
So after routing your tour you have to rework it.
Problem 1 is solved with the opportunity in Locus to add navigational point manually, perfect.
For problem 2 looks like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4eczvsbedE
You have to delete the not needed points with a lot of clicks due to missing option of a route point list, where you could delete all these points at once and you always have to leave the "edit on map"-mode to delete points and you have to go back afterwards everytime.

Therefore I started threads at the helpdesk:
http://help.locusmap.eu/topic/automatic-deleting-or-avoidance-of-creating-intermediate-goalszwischenziele-during-route-plannin
http://help.locusmap.eu/topic/quick-delete-navigational-point-option-in-right-arrow-menu
But nobody is interested.

How are you planning routes?
There is no online route service or program, which can do what Locus is doing (good map with hillshading and MTB rated trails, height infomation within the map and map data based instructions).
No GPSies, No ridewithgps, no outdooractive, no komoot, no basecamp, no ....... is doing that.

How do you create MTB-tours?

Thanks

 

Online Christian

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Re: Struggeling with Route creation for Mountainbiking
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2016, 13:51:49 »
Sounds frustrated ;)

I use Brouter - offline and online with different templates (from poutnikl).
Data - especially for mtb - are reliable in OSM and rendered well in maps provided by Brouter web.

You can avoid Zwischenziele by editing config file.
Edit: dev_enable_add_new_route_via_points=0

hth,
Christian
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 14:29:01 by Christian »
 

Offline shushuk

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Re: Struggeling with Route creation for Mountainbiking
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2016, 15:14:47 »
I also use brouter for MTB-Track planning. Although I don't need navigational instructions, I just follow tracks. That's fine for me.

shushuk

BTW: I also have the problem that (nearly) nobody is interested in, what I think, my suggestion for a better app-handling for MTB-users regarding air pressure sensor. So I'm also a bit frustrated at the moment.... :'(
 

Offline Joachim Buhl

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Re: Struggeling with Route creation for Mountainbiking
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2016, 15:17:34 »
Hello Christian

Thanks for the hint to BRouter-Web:
Limitations of BRouter-Web:
- No Mapstyle with MTB rated paths. E.g. http://www.openandromaps.org/kartenlegende/andromaps_mtb
- No OSM with hillschading and on the fly height data at the cursor. I would like to see during routing if a path is going up or down.
- No direction instructions.
- No possibility to have one or more reference gpx files displayed during planning

Config.cfg hack doesn't change anything with MapQuest Routing. Locus/Mapquest still generates "you have arrives at your destination"-points.
So its not what I'm looking for.

And it is very frustrating. I remember the time around 10(?) years ago, when we start to use our pocket pc with a navigation program for street navigation (e.g. Navigon for Pocket PC).
- The maps all ended at the border of a country
- The ETA was way off and we tweaked the config files with speed profiles to get it to work.
- There was nothing about traffic information.
- You cannot plan a route with via points.
- And the programm crashes with routes over 500km or so.
- No chance to get the next gas station on your route.

And if I would write somewhere that it should be different and that there is a way to make it better, everybody would tell, that everything is great because you reach your destination.
Its the same right now with "offroad" navigation. Nothing is working like it should and nobody is really working on it because maybe the market for it doesn't exist. Really?
10 years ago everybody says "I don't need navigation, I have my paper map".
In 10 years we all laugh about the offroad navigation from today, but I'm not willing to wait so long.

Bye

PS.: Thanks shushuk, I'm not alone. Don't you use instructions because you think, you don't need them or because it does not work properly right now?

« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 16:28:09 by Joachim Buhl »
 

Online Christian

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Re: Struggeling with Route creation for Mountainbiking
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2016, 16:21:43 »
Hi Joachim,
sorry for misunderstanding.
But...
hillshading is available - change the maps in Brouter web.
elevation data on the fly is available - left in the diagram (interactive). Ups and downs are displayed ;) Brouter is a tool heavily charged with information and functions - not always visible on first sight.

If you play with profiles from Poutnikl you will get a lot more possibilities than with standard profiles.

Do you need instructions during mountainbiking? Really? With a blonde voice?

If you have a look into the generated data from OSM (Register 'data') you will note that not all tags are set in OSM. Therefore a "offroad navigation" is quite difficult. But people are on the way to make it work - see BRouter (sometimes with own tags)

I remember Navi Computer and all the old stuff very well and do not miss ist. The speed of developement in Navi tools is amazing just now and sometimes i have to use the tool outdoor instead of configuring and tweaking all the time indoor ;)

be patient :)
Christian

I just voted for "avoiding Zwischenziele" because you posted a link. Otherwise i will not find postings on help desk via smartphone due to strange design.

@shushuk: i have read your post about sensor but i will wait for the statement of menion about the sensor usage...

But in general - the community here in Locus forum ... is sleeping. And i guess i know why :(
 

Offline Joachim Buhl

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Re: Struggeling with Route creation for Mountainbiking
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2016, 17:05:35 »
Hello Christian

I saw all the maps. And I mean I saw ALL the maps in the internet.
What we need for Mountainbiking is MTB_scales with hillshading.
I do not know why no online site uses this theme.
You can only see the height after you marking a point and the track is calculated. I need it to see before I'm setting a point on the track.
"Do you need instructions during mountainbiking? Really? With a blonde voice?"
Why not? Do you need instructions in the car?
If it would work properly, the flow is only interrupted when needed, the battery life is longer and the device is not beeping and talking so much.
Why do you think the forum is sleeping? I don't know, what you mean.

Thanks

 

Offline gynta

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Re: Struggeling with Route creation for Mountainbiking
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2016, 18:17:33 »
...the community here in Locus forum ... is sleeping.
it's winter ;)

Offline Andrew Heard

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Re: Struggeling with Route creation for Mountainbiking
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2016, 21:54:49 »
BTW: I also have the problem that (nearly) nobody is interested in, what I think, my suggestion for a better app-handling for MTB-users regarding air pressure sensor. So I'm also a bit frustrated at the moment.... :'(
interesting, but most devices do not have a pressure sensor
Sony Z1, Samsung Galaxy Note 8
 

Offline john_percy

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Re: Struggeling with Route creation for Mountainbiking
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2016, 10:00:50 »
Why not use BRouter in Locus? Doesn't that solve most of the issues? Choose the map display you want, turn on map shading, set on the fly height data at the cursor...
 

Offline Michal

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Re: Struggeling with Route creation for Mountainbiking
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2016, 11:08:31 »
Problem 1: The map data is not perfect, so you do not get an instruction whereever you need it.
Problem 2: On each point you set, Locus places a "Zwischenziel"/"in between/going over point" and/or a "you have arrived at your destination" point.
So after routing your tour you have to rework it.
...
Therefore I started threads at the helpdesk:
http://help.locusmap.eu/topic/automatic-deleting-or-avoidance-of-creating-intermediate-goalszwischenziele-during-route-plannin
http://help.locusmap.eu/topic/quick-delete-navigational-point-option-in-right-arrow-menu
But nobody is interested.

How are you planning routes?
Hi Joachim,
we are listening, that's for sure :)

Problem 1 is regarding all outdoor maps and navigation data - none of them is 100% accurate and up to date. Therefore we are trying our best to make Locus as helpful as possible so that you can tackle this problem as best as you can.

Problem 2 - good point, I've notified Menion

"nobody is interested" - there are so many ideas on Locus helpdesk that their only chance to be noticed by the devs is number of their votes (sometimes it happens that Menion notices some of them directly and puts them right on his roadmap - not these two though. As I've written, I told Menion about them).

How do we plan routes? Pretty much the same way as you do. However, I'm reading the good old contour lines on map to predict elevation besides dynamic altitude on the cursor position. And I don't find "zwischenziele" so bothering to make me rework the routing :). To be true, I prefer beep guidance and automatic display turn-on before direction change when on bike. Voice navigation is better when hiking.
PR & copywriting, Locus team, Asamm Software, Prague
 

Offline zossebart

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Re: Struggeling with Route creation for Mountainbiking
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2016, 12:44:16 »
Why not use BRouter in Locus? Doesn't that solve most of the issues? Choose the map display you want, turn on map shading, set on the fly height data at the cursor...

I would also suggest trying out Brouter (the app) on the phone. It works very nice together with Locus (once set up correctly).
Brouter-web is in my eyes more of an additional feature to test out the router on the big screen and for profile development.

For MTB-Routing with Brouter you could try out the poutnikl profiles (which were already mentioned). You can find them here: https://github.com/poutnikl/Brouter-profiles.

I also started a MTB-Profile some time ago, which is still in development (well, I guess such things are always "in development"). I posted my first version here: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/osm-android-bikerouting/ACQWNUsEsEM/A3H-6UAxWW4J
I'm working on it again lately. This is tailored to my needs in the low mountain ranges. I have no idea if it also works nice in alpine areas.

One "disatvantage" of Brouter is that it does not generate turn instructions. So you have to rely on the navigation generator of Locus, which works ok, but of course not perfect. The author of Brouter considers implementing turn instructions in the future, though.

So basically the idea is to create a routing profile which automatically finds good MTB-routes without the need to "force" it by the use of many via-points (Zwischenziele). Ideally, you only define via-points for the locations you really want do visit while riding (e.g. local attractions, huts or mountain peaks) and the router does the work of finding a nice route between them. But this will remain a dream forever, I think, because no map data is perfect (although the mappers are doing theit best) and the router has no idea of nice scenery or your personal favourite routes and trails.

But I don't know if this is what you want, because it seems to me you are more of the "manual" type, knowing the area and the nice trails and "only" wanting to create the route for display on the map and for instructions?

 

Offline Joachim Buhl

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Re: Struggeling with Route creation for Mountainbiking
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2016, 18:36:15 »
Hello All

Thanks for your participation on this topic. I think a discussion about it is very helpful.
 
@john_percy: As zossebart wrote BRouter doesn't generates instructions and routing in Locus is sometimes not very handy, especially on a small screen.

@Michal: Thanks for highlighting it. If we didn't find a path around the helpdesk in the past, we wouldn't have configurable automatic display on/off, manual instructions, ability of Locus working with "8-shaded" tracks and tracks with overlap, configurable turn instruction distances, short: we wouldn't have a working navigation feature for MTB right now.
So hopefully we can go on that way ;-).

I think problem 1 is adressed by the ability to add manual instructions until the map data will be perfect. Closed.
Problem 2: Thanks again.

I think planning a route without via points is not applicable in most of my cases.

@zossebart: Your assumption of me as an mountainbiker is right.
There is a nice area with alot of trails (e.g. around "Friesener Warte"). You can see  the MTB_scales on the map and so you know, that they are worthy to try. And then you go to GPSTourInfo, GPSies and so on and you look what routes are there already in the area. With this information I make a best of route in that area.
And this would look like this:


Planning without via points? Leaving via points on the map? No instructions but generated instructions by a semi intelligent algorithm? Doesn't work.

Thanks All

Kind regards

 

Offline 0709

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Re: Struggeling with Route creation for Mountainbiking
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2016, 19:45:57 »
Oh, I completely missed this tread, sorry, my wintersleep ;-). 

Also as tourist biker, planning simple routes, via points tool combined with autorouting is nice ! 
@ Joachim: good point, indeed  a lot of progressions made last year ! Tnx Locus team.
Actually in Navigation: All via's are  'must pass' ('dest' -> if changed config.cfg) points, tts announced.
But he he...nice, voice  'Samual'  keeps silent, on 'vias'  ;-)

- Users using 'strict route' navigation probably prefer 'normal simple (silent-disappearing) via's.
- Using Navi-autorerouting needs the 'must pass' point reference via's.
- Or users should be able to select for 'simple via' or "must pass via" direct in their routedesign.

See http://help.locusmap.eu/topic/automatic-deleting-or-avoidance-of-creating-intermediate-goalszwischenziele-during-route-plannin

Actually Locus displays a message "to close to previous point'  when clicking on top of excisting (just created) via point.
Proposal: In Locus "route and measure" screen, single click +way adds a "simple" via, and second +way tap, on top of simple via, promotes to "must pass' via.
Design: +/- same comfort, speed and ease of planning by using the via's tool.

Save design: Save promoted "must pass" vias. Throw away normal via's (job done).
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 22:26:56 by 0709 »